From amnotmyown at juno.com  Sun Feb  1 08:27:13 2004
From: amnotmyown at juno.com (Dian D Belbeck)
Date: Thu Mar 24 11:50:07 2005
Subject: [owen] Deep in my heart
Message-ID: <20040201.072714.2132.0.amnotmyown@juno.com>

Uncle Lawrence

I like your e-mail about Bush..  I have noticed that Bush doesn't do
things on public pressure or dance to the tune of the press.  He seems
not to be on our time scale of what we would do.  My thoughts are that He
takes His time and thinks through the process before He acts.  I look at
this process as a quality.  If need be He can react fast like the Blitz
of Irag, or the response of 911. But his other responses I think are
appropriate.  He probably will clean out the Intelligence departments but
on his own time.  Just my thoughts.... Dan B

________________________________________________________________
The best thing to hit the Internet in years - Juno SpeedBand!
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From 3363913444 at mms.mycingular.com  Sun Feb  1 07:39:39 2004
From: 3363913444 at mms.mycingular.com (3363913444@mms.mycingular.com)
Date: Thu Mar 24 11:50:07 2005
Subject: [owen] Multimedia message
Message-ID: <7131004.1075660933420.JavaMail.wluser@wcagw01>

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-----------------

You have received the above Multimedia Message (MMS) from a Cingular Wireless customer. Please make sure you open all attachments to get the full message. Simply reply to this email to send a message back to the sender.

It's simple to send messages with photos, graphics, music, voice clips, text and more from a Cingular phone to other phones and email addresses. To learn more, please visit http://www.cingular.com/mms.
From june at binhost.com  Sun Feb  1 14:55:56 2004
From: june at binhost.com (June Newman)
Date: Thu Mar 24 11:50:07 2005
Subject: [owen] Multimedia message
In-Reply-To: <7131004.1075660933420.JavaMail.wluser@wcagw01>
References: <7131004.1075660933420.JavaMail.wluser@wcagw01>
Message-ID: <A668DA6E-54F0-11D8-B371-000A95C48E6C@binhost.com>

Will someone please send the attachment as inline text?  That mime file 
isn't Mac friendly.  Or my Mac isn't mime friendly, or something.  I 
can see the picture of Uncle, but not the attached message.  Thanks!  
June


On Feb 1, 2004, at 6:39 AM, 3363913444@mms.mycingular.com wrote:

> <mime-attachment>
>
> -----------------
>
> You have received the above Multimedia Message (MMS) from a Cingular 
> Wireless customer. Please make sure you open all attachments to get 
> the full message. Simply reply to this email to send a message back to 
> the sender.
>
> It's simple to send messages with photos, graphics, music, voice 
> clips, text and more from a Cingular phone to other phones and email 
> addresses. To learn more, please visit http://www.cingular.com/mms.
> _______________________________________________
> Owen mailing list
> Owen@owenconnections.com
> https://my.binhost.com/lists/listinfo/owen
> Full archives at: http://archives.binhost.com/~owen


From sowen at telepath.com  Sun Feb  1 14:58:52 2004
From: sowen at telepath.com (Susan Owen)
Date: Thu Mar 24 11:50:08 2005
Subject: [owen] Multimedia message
Message-ID: <410-22004201195852249@telepath.com>

I did not see a message, just the picture.
Susan


> [Original Message]
> From: June Newman <june@binhost.com>
> To: <owen@owenconnections.com>
> Date: 2/1/2004 1:56:04 PM
> Subject: Re: [owen] Multimedia message
>
> Will someone please send the attachment as inline text?  That mime file 
> isn't Mac friendly.  Or my Mac isn't mime friendly, or something.  I 
> can see the picture of Uncle, but not the attached message.  Thanks!  
> June
>
>
> On Feb 1, 2004, at 6:39 AM, 3363913444@mms.mycingular.com wrote:
>
> > <mime-attachment>
> >
> > -----------------
> >
> > You have received the above Multimedia Message (MMS) from a Cingular 
> > Wireless customer. Please make sure you open all attachments to get 
> > the full message. Simply reply to this email to send a message back to 
> > the sender.
> >
> > It's simple to send messages with photos, graphics, music, voice 
> > clips, text and more from a Cingular phone to other phones and email 
> > addresses. To learn more, please visit http://www.cingular.com/mms.
> > _______________________________________________
> > Owen mailing list
> > Owen@owenconnections.com
> > https://my.binhost.com/lists/listinfo/owen
> > Full archives at: http://archives.binhost.com/~owen
>
> _______________________________________________
> Owen mailing list
> Owen@owenconnections.com
> https://my.binhost.com/lists/listinfo/owen
> Full archives at: http://archives.binhost.com/~owen



From jd.cassels at verizon.net  Sun Feb  1 15:39:34 2004
From: jd.cassels at verizon.net (Jeff Cassels)
Date: Thu Mar 24 11:50:08 2005
Subject: [owen] Multimedia message
In-Reply-To: <410-22004201195852249@telepath.com>
Message-ID: <002501c3e903$805a4880$6dab0304@Cassels>

I don't think there was a message, just the pic.  Presumably taken on
someone's picture phone.  Cool!

-----Original Message-----
From: owen-bounces@owenconnections.com
[mailto:owen-bounces@owenconnections.com] On Behalf Of Susan Owen
Sent: Sunday, February 01, 2004 1:59 PM
To: owen@owenconnections.com
Subject: Re: [owen] Multimedia message


I did not see a message, just the picture.
Susan


> [Original Message]
> From: June Newman <june@binhost.com>
> To: <owen@owenconnections.com>
> Date: 2/1/2004 1:56:04 PM
> Subject: Re: [owen] Multimedia message
>
> Will someone please send the attachment as inline text?  That mime 
> file
> isn't Mac friendly.  Or my Mac isn't mime friendly, or something.  I 
> can see the picture of Uncle, but not the attached message.  Thanks!  
> June
>
>
> On Feb 1, 2004, at 6:39 AM, 3363913444@mms.mycingular.com wrote:
>
> > <mime-attachment>
> >
> > -----------------
> >
> > You have received the above Multimedia Message (MMS) from a Cingular
> > Wireless customer. Please make sure you open all attachments to get 
> > the full message. Simply reply to this email to send a message back
to 
> > the sender.
> >
> > It's simple to send messages with photos, graphics, music, voice
> > clips, text and more from a Cingular phone to other phones and email

> > addresses. To learn more, please visit http://www.cingular.com/mms.
> > _______________________________________________
> > Owen mailing list
> > Owen@owenconnections.com
> > https://my.binhost.com/lists/listinfo/owen
> > Full archives at: http://archives.binhost.com/~owen
>
> _______________________________________________
> Owen mailing list
> Owen@owenconnections.com https://my.binhost.com/lists/listinfo/owen
> Full archives at: http://archives.binhost.com/~owen


_______________________________________________
Owen mailing list
Owen@owenconnections.com https://my.binhost.com/lists/listinfo/owen
Full archives at: http://archives.binhost.com/~owen


From Gayleowen at aol.com  Sun Feb  1 20:10:41 2004
From: Gayleowen at aol.com (Gayleowen@aol.com)
Date: Thu Mar 24 11:50:08 2005
Subject: [owen] Gwynne's Status
Message-ID: <2b.4feb3ccd.2d4efd91@aol.com>

Just heard from Roger and Gwynne was in surgery 4 hours and all went well.  
He will be in recovery for about an hour and a half and then will be in 
intensive care after that.

We will keep everyone posted on his status.

Gayle
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From Gayleowen at aol.com  Sun Feb  1 21:21:03 2004
From: Gayleowen at aol.com (Gayleowen@aol.com)
Date: Thu Mar 24 11:50:08 2005
Subject: [owen] Update on Gwynne
Message-ID: <12d.3a25cdfc.2d4f0e0f@aol.com>

Roger just spoke to the surgeon and he advised that they had to remove the 
entire right lung instead of just two lobes.  it was more advanced than they had 
expected.  due to the strain this puts on the other lung, and due to the 
surgery,  gwynne will be in ICU for approx 2 days.  

FYI, Roger has his cell phone with him and the number is 336-391-3444.

Gayle
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From klowen at hsnp.com  Mon Feb  2 09:11:43 2004
From: klowen at hsnp.com (lawrence)
Date: Thu Mar 24 11:50:08 2005
Subject: [owen] what lurks in our hearts
Message-ID: <000d01c3e996$7d106ae0$9989fea9@oemcomputer>

Mark --
If you think me speaking pretty words to a pretty female in the service of my
sexual energies is evil, then so be it.  I din't think it was evil in 1952 and
looking back at it now it seems deceitful, unskillful, desperate, amusing, but
not evil.  Had I continued the story by telling that she said "NO" and I went 
ahead and raped her, then we got us some evil to talk about. 

I wrote that the heart is a seat of darkness.  To me, darkness is where you
can't see well.  When I look into my heart, at times,  I see darkness.
That is, what's going on in there is such a blooming mess that I can't pin it down in a word.

You are welcome to go with the thought that your God teaches that man's 
heart is evil.  I won't wrangle Bible meanings with you, or with others in the 
family who accept and proclaim what they find in the Bible.  You ask us to not
take your message as being religious.  I take it that way because you use
evidence from no other sources, such as art, history, personal experience, or science.
You anchor your claims about our heart being evil in biblical verses.  That is a religious position.

I just looked at photos in Christmas cards.  Beth and Richie sent a wonderful photo
of their three.  I'll bet you a dime that Beth and Richie have never for one second
looked at those three gorgeous youngsters and thought, "Their hearts are evil."  You and 
Andrea stand tall with your four in the wonderful photo you sent.  I'll bet you two dimes
you have never for one second looked at those four splendid children and 
thought, "Evil resides in their hearts."

On a winter morning in 1937, some ten or eleven of us would gather around the 
breakfast table.  Mother or Daddy would read some verses from  the Bible.  One of them
would pray.  We would eat the oatmeal, or the biscuits and eggs.  There would not have 
been one speck, not one hint, of evil in the hearts at that table.  There was lots of love,
some fear probably (it was bad depression times), some anxiety about clothes and school, 
concern about health,  and loads of determination and energy to head straight on into 
the day's offerings.  

Richard Rhodes wrote a book called Why They Kill which won the 1999 Pulitzer Prize.
Rhodes tells the story of Dr. Lonnie AThens, a criminologist who interviewed men and
women convicted of murder.  Athens wanted to learn why they killed.  Athens discovered
what he calls a pattern of brutalization in the lives of the killers.  They were not born
killers, they became killers.  Athens never uses the concept of evil to help him 
understand human behavior.  Mark, it is possible to pay close attention to humans 
and their actions without seeing through a biblical lens.

William Faulkner wrote a novel called Light In August.  A character in the novel named 
Joe Christmas gets into bad trouble and is brutally killed.  Thirty years after writing the 
novel, Faulkner answered a student's question about the character of Joe Christmas.
"I think you really can't say thay any man is good or bad.  I grant you there are some
exceptions, but man is the victim of himself, or his fellows, or his own nature, or his 
environment, but no man is good or bad either.  He tries to do the best he can within his
rights.  Now with Christmas for instance, he didn't know what he was, and his only
salvation in order to live with himself was to repudiate mankind, to live outside the human
race.  And he tried to do that but nobody would let him, the human race itself wouldn't
let him.  And I don't think he was bad, I think he was tragic.  And his tragedy was that he didn't 
know what he was and would never know, and that to me is the most tragic condition
that an individual can have -- to not know who he was."  The notion of tragedy, the tragic vision,
predates the New Testament some 500 years.  It is instructive to look at the human condition
through more than one vision.  The Christian vision is excellent, nourishing, helpful, but
it is one vision.  There are others.  

I asked Kathleen if she ever thought our three were evil.  "Don't be ridiculous," she said.
I never one time, for even a nanosecond, thought evil lived in their hearts.  If I learn that
Beatrice poisons the drinking watrer of Columbus, then I'll listen to you tell me that 
her actions were evil.

In the hearts of those around that table in 1937 there was a good dose of orneriness,
of mischief, and some horniness.   Evil?   No way.

Love --
Lawrence












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From Dowen at wcvt.com  Mon Feb  2 07:23:18 2004
From: Dowen at wcvt.com (Owen, Dan)
Date: Thu Mar 24 11:50:08 2005
Subject: [owen] Deep in my heart
Message-ID: <3367C8BA324FD311AD06009027514849015F3D56@tnet.wcvt.com>

Uncle Lawrence,
Just heard on the way in to work this morning that President Bush is setting
up a Warren type commission to look into the intelligence break downs.  He
must be "lurking" on the owen connections. ha ha ha   How about those
Patriots last night.  That was a very exciting Super Bowl.  
Love you all Dan O................ 

-----Original Message-----
From: owen-bounces+dowen=wcvt.com@owenconnections.com
[mailto:owen-bounces+dowen=wcvt.com@owenconnections.com]On Behalf Of
lawrence
Sent: Saturday, January 31, 2004 8:10 AM
To: owen@owenconnections.com
Subject: [owen] Deep in my heart


Mark used the phrase, "evil in ones heart."  He speculated about how
Saddam's
heart differed from Bush's heart.  Josh wants to know how I feel in my heart
about Bush.
I think it is impossible to know what is in ones heart, mine or yours.  We
cannot ever
know what is in a political leader's heart -- we must read his actions, not
his motives.
 
Based on evidence in the public record, knowable by our minds, Saudis
hijacked planes and
flew them into the World Trade Center and the Pentagon.  The Bush
administration opposed
conducting an investigation into what happened in American intelligence
agencies, military
agencies, and executive agencies in the months prior to the 9/11 attacks.
Yielding to 
pressure, a commission was named to conduct an investiagation, and Bush
named
Henry Kissinger to chair that commission.  Kissinger stepped aside after
public outcry
made it clear that many Americans do not trust Henry Kissinger. I would like
to know how
and why Kissinger was chosen in the first place.  Historians will know a
hundred years from now, but 
Bush will make certain that we cannnot know now.  I do not care a fig for
what Bush has in 
his heart about the commission investigating the 9/11 attacks.  I want to
know why he is not
the strongest, most outspoken  supporter of the investigation.  Why isn't my
president 
demanding, daily, Why?  Why?  Why?  Why doesn't he want the American people
to know
what happened. 
 
Ditto for the ridiculously bad intelligence about Iraq's WMDs   The two
public figures telling the
truth about Iraq's WMDs in the months before March, 2003 were Saddam Hussein
and Hans
Blix.  Why isn't my president demanding a thorough, all out, public
investigation of the CIA,
FBI, State Department intelligence units, Pentagon intelligence units, and
the National
Security Agency.  Why isn't Bush pounding the table, publicly, and demanding
to know, for
the people, how all those agencies got it wrong?  Why?
 
For many years I read, studied, and taught novels, short stories, and plays.
>From Sophocles and
Aristophanes right down to the present, writers have shown that the human
heart is a seat of
darkness.  I will speak very personally now.  One night in Abilene, Texas,
when I was 20,
because I wanted something from a young lady, I said to her, "I love you."
She said, "With
all your heart?"  "With all my heart," I said.   At that moment, in that
car, under that moon,
with Nat King Cole crooning over the car's radio,  my heart had nothing to
do with what I 
was willing to say, willing to do.  Nothing. 
 
Happy Saturday --
Lawrence 
 

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From homerowen at earthlink.net  Mon Feb  2 10:00:40 2004
From: homerowen at earthlink.net (Homer Owen)
Date: Thu Mar 24 11:50:08 2005
Subject: [owen] what lurks in our hearts
References: <000d01c3e996$7d106ae0$9989fea9@oemcomputer>
Message-ID: <00e101c3e99d$54029ae0$a376fea9@compaq06>

Evil is a very interesting word.  When you talk about being religious if we only use scripture to define evil I thought about going to Mr. Webster and seeing how he defined evil.  I can see in your mind Lawrence that your definition of evil and Mark's definition is probably not the same.  Maybe Mr. Webster can help us have a little more level playing field.

1.  Having bad qualities of a natural kind; mischievous; having qualities which tend to injury, or to produce mischief.
2.  Having bad qualities of a moral kind; wicked; corrupt; perverse; wrong; as evil thoughts; evil deeds; evil speaking; as an evil generation.
3.  Unfortunate; unhappy; producing sorrow, distress, injury or calamity; as evil tidings; evil arrows; evil days.

I could go on with the thoughts of Mr. Webster but this is enough to help us get a little better grip on a broader definition of this word evil.

I was thinking about our brother Gwynne this morning and I have heard him tell of when his older brothers took his cat and hung it.  By the number one definition above we can see that this was an evil deed.  Their action produced injury both to the cat and to Gwynne and we can say that this act produced mischief.

With this definition I can see that my four sons had evil in them the same as our parents would have seen evil in their children.

One other definition that Mr. Webster gave is:
Depravity; corruption of heart, or disposition to commit wickedness; malignity.  The heart of the sons of men is full of evil.  Eccles. 9.

I see Mr. Webster took a passage from the bible to help us understand the condition of our hearts.

Love and prayers for Gwynne today.
Homer
  ----- Original Message ----- 
  From: lawrence 
  To: owen@owenconnections.com 
  Sent: Monday, February 02, 2004 8:11 AM
  Subject: [owen] what lurks in our hearts


  Mark --
  If you think me speaking pretty words to a pretty female in the service of my
  sexual energies is evil, then so be it.  I din't think it was evil in 1952 and
  looking back at it now it seems deceitful, unskillful, desperate, amusing, but
  not evil.  Had I continued the story by telling that she said "NO" and I went 
  ahead and raped her, then we got us some evil to talk about. 

  I wrote that the heart is a seat of darkness.  To me, darkness is where you
  can't see well.  When I look into my heart, at times,  I see darkness.
  That is, what's going on in there is such a blooming mess that I can't pin it down in a word.

  You are welcome to go with the thought that your God teaches that man's 
  heart is evil.  I won't wrangle Bible meanings with you, or with others in the 
  family who accept and proclaim what they find in the Bible.  You ask us to not
  take your message as being religious.  I take it that way because you use
  evidence from no other sources, such as art, history, personal experience, or science.
  You anchor your claims about our heart being evil in biblical verses.  That is a religious position.

  I just looked at photos in Christmas cards.  Beth and Richie sent a wonderful photo
  of their three.  I'll bet you a dime that Beth and Richie have never for one second
  looked at those three gorgeous youngsters and thought, "Their hearts are evil."  You and 
  Andrea stand tall with your four in the wonderful photo you sent.  I'll bet you two dimes
  you have never for one second looked at those four splendid children and 
  thought, "Evil resides in their hearts."

  On a winter morning in 1937, some ten or eleven of us would gather around the 
  breakfast table.  Mother or Daddy would read some verses from  the Bible.  One of them
  would pray.  We would eat the oatmeal, or the biscuits and eggs.  There would not have 
  been one speck, not one hint, of evil in the hearts at that table.  There was lots of love,
  some fear probably (it was bad depression times), some anxiety about clothes and school, 
  concern about health,  and loads of determination and energy to head straight on into 
  the day's offerings.  

  Richard Rhodes wrote a book called Why They Kill which won the 1999 Pulitzer Prize.
  Rhodes tells the story of Dr. Lonnie AThens, a criminologist who interviewed men and
  women convicted of murder.  Athens wanted to learn why they killed.  Athens discovered
  what he calls a pattern of brutalization in the lives of the killers.  They were not born
  killers, they became killers.  Athens never uses the concept of evil to help him 
  understand human behavior.  Mark, it is possible to pay close attention to humans 
  and their actions without seeing through a biblical lens.

  William Faulkner wrote a novel called Light In August.  A character in the novel named 
  Joe Christmas gets into bad trouble and is brutally killed.  Thirty years after writing the 
  novel, Faulkner answered a student's question about the character of Joe Christmas.
  "I think you really can't say thay any man is good or bad.  I grant you there are some
  exceptions, but man is the victim of himself, or his fellows, or his own nature, or his 
  environment, but no man is good or bad either.  He tries to do the best he can within his
  rights.  Now with Christmas for instance, he didn't know what he was, and his only
  salvation in order to live with himself was to repudiate mankind, to live outside the human
  race.  And he tried to do that but nobody would let him, the human race itself wouldn't
  let him.  And I don't think he was bad, I think he was tragic.  And his tragedy was that he didn't 
  know what he was and would never know, and that to me is the most tragic condition
  that an individual can have -- to not know who he was."  The notion of tragedy, the tragic vision,
  predates the New Testament some 500 years.  It is instructive to look at the human condition
  through more than one vision.  The Christian vision is excellent, nourishing, helpful, but
  it is one vision.  There are others.  

  I asked Kathleen if she ever thought our three were evil.  "Don't be ridiculous," she said.
  I never one time, for even a nanosecond, thought evil lived in their hearts.  If I learn that
  Beatrice poisons the drinking watrer of Columbus, then I'll listen to you tell me that 
  her actions were evil.

  In the hearts of those around that table in 1937 there was a good dose of orneriness,
  of mischief, and some horniness.   Evil?   No way.

  Love --
  Lawrence














------------------------------------------------------------------------------


  _______________________________________________
  Owen mailing list
  Owen@owenconnections.com
  https://my.binhost.com/lists/listinfo/owen
  Full archives at: http://archives.binhost.com/~owen
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From june at binhost.com  Mon Feb  2 10:47:24 2004
From: june at binhost.com (June Newman)
Date: Thu Mar 24 11:50:08 2005
Subject: [owen] misuse of a dictionary
In-Reply-To: <00e101c3e99d$54029ae0$a376fea9@compaq06>
References: <000d01c3e996$7d106ae0$9989fea9@oemcomputer>
	<00e101c3e99d$54029ae0$a376fea9@compaq06>
Message-ID: <1850D416-5597-11D8-B371-000A95C48E6C@binhost.com>

Dictionaries tell how words are used by speakers of a particular 
language.  That is what Webster's dictionary does.  It does not answer 
such questions as whether or not humans'  hearts are evil.  Mr Webster 
took a passage from the Bible to help us see how the word evil is used 
by speakers of English.   The sentence from Ecclesiastes is an example. 
Period.  There is NO editorial agreement or disagreement with the text 
of the example.  To use it that way is a misuse of a dictionary.

I think there is a giant leap that I am not able to make between 
defining certain behaviors as evil and calling evil the collective 
human heart.

Good cheer!  June



On Feb 2, 2004, at 9:00 AM, Homer Owen wrote:

> Evil is a very interesting word.? When you talk about being religious 
> if we only use scripture to define evil I thought about going to Mr. 
> Webster and seeing how he defined evil.? I can see in your mind 
> Lawrence that your definition of evil and Mark's definition is 
> probably not the same.? Maybe Mr. Webster can help us have a little 
> more level playing field.
> ?
> 1.? Having bad qualities of a natural kind; mischievous; having 
> qualities which tend to injury, or to produce mischief.
> 2.? Having bad qualities of a moral kind; wicked; corrupt; perverse; 
> wrong; as evil thoughts; evil deeds; evil speaking; as an evil 
> generation.
> 3.? Unfortunate; unhappy; producing sorrow, distress, injury or 
> calamity; as evil tidings; evil arrows; evil days.
> ?
> I could go on with the thoughts of Mr. Webster but this is enough to 
> help us get a little better grip on a broader definition of this word 
> evil.
> ?
> I was thinking about our brother Gwynne this morning and I have heard 
> him tell of when his older brothers took his cat and hung it.? By the 
> number one definition above we can see that this was an evil deed.? 
> Their action produced injury both to the cat and to Gwynne and we can 
> say that this act produced mischief.
> ?
> With this definition I can see that my four sons had evil in them the 
> same as our parents would have seen evil in their children.
> ?
> One other definition that Mr. Webster gave is:
> Depravity; corruption of heart, or disposition to commit wickedness; 
> malignity.? The heart of the sons of men is full of evil.? Eccles. 9.
> ?
> I see Mr. Webster took a passage from the bible to help us understand 
> the condition of our hearts.
> ?
> Love and prayers for Gwynne today.
> Homer
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: lawrence
> To: owen@owenconnections.com
> Sent:Monday, February 02, 2004 8:11 AM
> Subject:[owen] what lurks in our hearts
>
> Mark --
> If you think me speaking pretty words to a pretty female in the 
> service of my
> sexual energies is evil, then so be it.? I din't think it was evil in 
> 1952 and
> looking back at it now it seems deceitful, unskillful, desperate, 
> amusing, but
> not evil.? Had I continued the story by telling that she said "NO" and 
> I went
> ahead and raped her, then we got us some evil to talk about.?
> ?
> I wrote that the heart is a seat of darkness.? To me, darkness is 
> where you
> can't see well.? When I look into my heart, at times,? I see darkness.
> That is, what's going on in there is such a blooming mess that I can't 
> pin it down in a word.
> ?
> You are welcome to go with the thought that your God teaches that man's
> heart is evil.? I won't wrangle Bible meanings with you, or with 
> others in the
> family who accept and proclaim what they find in the Bible.? You ask 
> us to not
> take your message as being religious.? I take it that way because you 
> use
> evidence from no other sources, such as art, history, personal 
> experience, or science.
> You anchor your claims about our heart being evil in biblical verses.? 
> That is a religious position.
> ?
> I just looked at photos in Christmas cards.? Beth and Richie sent a 
> wonderful photo
> of their three.? I'll bet you a dime that Beth and Richie have never 
> for one second
> looked at those three gorgeous youngsters and thought, "Their hearts 
> are evil."? You and
> Andrea stand tall with your four in the wonderful photo you sent.? 
> I'll bet you two dimes
> you have never for one second looked at those four splendid children 
> and
> thought, "Evil resides in their hearts."
> ?
> On a winter morning in 1937, some ten or eleven of us would gather 
> around the
> breakfast table.? Mother or Daddy would read some verses from? the 
> Bible.? One of them
> would pray.? We would eat the oatmeal, or the biscuits and eggs.? 
> There would not have
> been one speck, not one hint, of evil in the hearts at that table.? 
> There was lots of love,
> some fear probably (it was bad depression times), some anxiety about 
> clothes and school,
> concern about health,? and loads of determination and energy to head 
> straight on into
> the day's offerings.?
> ?
> Richard Rhodes wrote a book calledWhy They Kill which won the 1999 
> Pulitzer Prize.
> Rhodes tells the story of Dr. Lonnie AThens, a criminologist who 
> interviewed men and
> women convicted of murder.? Athens wanted to learn why they killed.? 
> Athens discovered
> what he calls a pattern ofbrutalizationin the lives of the killers.? 
> They were not born
> killers, they became killers.? Athens never uses the concept of evil 
> to help him
> understand human behavior.? Mark, it is possible to pay close 
> attention to humans
> and their actions without seeing through a biblical lens.
> ?
> William Faulkner wrote a novel calledLight In August.? A character in 
> the novel named
> Joe Christmas gets into bad trouble and is brutally killed.? Thirty 
> years after writing the
> novel, Faulkner answered a student's question about the character of 
> Joe Christmas.
> "I think you really can't say thay any man is good or bad.? I grant 
> you there are some
> exceptions, but man is the victim of himself, or his fellows, or his 
> own nature, or his
> environment, but no man is good or bad either.? He tries to do the 
> best he can within his
> rights.? Now with Christmas for instance, he didn't know what he was, 
> and his only
> salvation in order to live with himself was to repudiate mankind, to 
> live outside the human
> race.? And he tried to do that but nobody would let him, the human 
> race itself wouldn't
> let him.? And I don't think he was bad, I think he was tragic.? And 
> his tragedy was that he didn't
> know what he was and would never know, and that to me is the most 
> tragic condition
> that an individual can have -- to not know who he was."? The notion of 
> tragedy, the tragic vision,
> predates the New Testament some 500 years.? It is instructive to look 
> at the human condition
> through more than one vision.? The Christian vision is excellent, 
> nourishing, helpful, but
> it is one vision.? There are others.?
> ?
> I asked Kathleen if she ever thought our three were evil.? "Don't be 
> ridiculous," she said.
> I never one time, for even a nanosecond, thought evil lived in their 
> hearts.? If I learn that
> Beatrice poisons the drinking watrer of Columbus, then I'll listen to 
> you tell me that
> her actions were evil.
> ?
> In the hearts of those around that table in 1937 there was a good dose 
> of orneriness,
> of mischief, and some horniness.?? Evil??? No way.
> ?
> Love --
> Lawrence
> ?
> ?
> ?
> ?
> ?
> ?
> ?
> ?
> ?
> ?
> ?
> ?
>
> _______________________________________________
> Owen mailing list
> Owen@owenconnections.com
> https://my.binhost.com/lists/listinfo/owen
> Full archives at: http://archives.binhost.com/~owen
> _______________________________________________
> Owen mailing list
> Owen@owenconnections.com
> https://my.binhost.com/lists/listinfo/owen
> Full archives at: http://archives.binhost.com/~owen


From Dowen at wcvt.com  Mon Feb  2 11:04:13 2004
From: Dowen at wcvt.com (Owen, Dan)
Date: Thu Mar 24 11:50:08 2005
Subject: [owen] misuse of a dictionary
Message-ID: <3367C8BA324FD311AD06009027514849015F3D59@tnet.wcvt.com>

All,
Me thinks some folks are looking way to deep to understand this issue of
evil.  I could care lees about someone's intentions (what is in their heart)
as long as they do not act out their evil intentions.  It is results that
count.  For example Jeffrey Dahmer may have been a fine youngster with a
weird fondness for meat versus vegetables.  He did not become evil until he
started snacking on humans.  He may of had evil intentions for a long time
before that first nibble but who cares.  A truck driver cut me off this
morning and kicked up a small stone on my window shield.  Trust me, for a
while there I had some very evil intentions towards that sucker but I did
not act on them.  The difference in my mind is action.  We all have evil
intentions from time to time but what separates us from evil doers is
action.
Love you all Dan O.............  

-----Original Message-----
From: owen-bounces@owenconnections.com
[mailto:owen-bounces@owenconnections.com]On Behalf Of June Newman
Sent: Monday, February 02, 2004 10:47 AM
To: owen@owenconnections.com
Subject: [owen] misuse of a dictionary


Dictionaries tell how words are used by speakers of a particular 
language.  That is what Webster's dictionary does.  It does not answer 
such questions as whether or not humans'  hearts are evil.  Mr Webster 
took a passage from the Bible to help us see how the word evil is used 
by speakers of English.   The sentence from Ecclesiastes is an example. 
Period.  There is NO editorial agreement or disagreement with the text 
of the example.  To use it that way is a misuse of a dictionary.

I think there is a giant leap that I am not able to make between 
defining certain behaviors as evil and calling evil the collective 
human heart.

Good cheer!  June



On Feb 2, 2004, at 9:00 AM, Homer Owen wrote:

> Evil is a very interesting word.? When you talk about being religious 
> if we only use scripture to define evil I thought about going to Mr. 
> Webster and seeing how he defined evil.? I can see in your mind 
> Lawrence that your definition of evil and Mark's definition is 
> probably not the same.? Maybe Mr. Webster can help us have a little 
> more level playing field.
> ?
> 1.? Having bad qualities of a natural kind; mischievous; having 
> qualities which tend to injury, or to produce mischief.
> 2.? Having bad qualities of a moral kind; wicked; corrupt; perverse; 
> wrong; as evil thoughts; evil deeds; evil speaking; as an evil 
> generation.
> 3.? Unfortunate; unhappy; producing sorrow, distress, injury or 
> calamity; as evil tidings; evil arrows; evil days.
> ?
> I could go on with the thoughts of Mr. Webster but this is enough to 
> help us get a little better grip on a broader definition of this word 
> evil.
> ?
> I was thinking about our brother Gwynne this morning and I have heard 
> him tell of when his older brothers took his cat and hung it.? By the 
> number one definition above we can see that this was an evil deed.? 
> Their action produced injury both to the cat and to Gwynne and we can 
> say that this act produced mischief.
> ?
> With this definition I can see that my four sons had evil in them the 
> same as our parents would have seen evil in their children.
> ?
> One other definition that Mr. Webster gave is:
> Depravity; corruption of heart, or disposition to commit wickedness; 
> malignity.? The heart of the sons of men is full of evil.? Eccles. 9.
> ?
> I see Mr. Webster took a passage from the bible to help us understand 
> the condition of our hearts.
> ?
> Love and prayers for Gwynne today.
> Homer
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: lawrence
> To: owen@owenconnections.com
> Sent:Monday, February 02, 2004 8:11 AM
> Subject:[owen] what lurks in our hearts
>
> Mark --
> If you think me speaking pretty words to a pretty female in the 
> service of my
> sexual energies is evil, then so be it.? I din't think it was evil in 
> 1952 and
> looking back at it now it seems deceitful, unskillful, desperate, 
> amusing, but
> not evil.? Had I continued the story by telling that she said "NO" and 
> I went
> ahead and raped her, then we got us some evil to talk about.?
> ?
> I wrote that the heart is a seat of darkness.? To me, darkness is 
> where you
> can't see well.? When I look into my heart, at times,? I see darkness.
> That is, what's going on in there is such a blooming mess that I can't 
> pin it down in a word.
> ?
> You are welcome to go with the thought that your God teaches that man's
> heart is evil.? I won't wrangle Bible meanings with you, or with 
> others in the
> family who accept and proclaim what they find in the Bible.? You ask 
> us to not
> take your message as being religious.? I take it that way because you 
> use
> evidence from no other sources, such as art, history, personal 
> experience, or science.
> You anchor your claims about our heart being evil in biblical verses.? 
> That is a religious position.
> ?
> I just looked at photos in Christmas cards.? Beth and Richie sent a 
> wonderful photo
> of their three.? I'll bet you a dime that Beth and Richie have never 
> for one second
> looked at those three gorgeous youngsters and thought, "Their hearts 
> are evil."? You and
> Andrea stand tall with your four in the wonderful photo you sent.? 
> I'll bet you two dimes
> you have never for one second looked at those four splendid children 
> and
> thought, "Evil resides in their hearts."
> ?
> On a winter morning in 1937, some ten or eleven of us would gather 
> around the
> breakfast table.? Mother or Daddy would read some verses from? the 
> Bible.? One of them
> would pray.? We would eat the oatmeal, or the biscuits and eggs.? 
> There would not have
> been one speck, not one hint, of evil in the hearts at that table.? 
> There was lots of love,
> some fear probably (it was bad depression times), some anxiety about 
> clothes and school,
> concern about health,? and loads of determination and energy to head 
> straight on into
> the day's offerings.?
> ?
> Richard Rhodes wrote a book calledWhy They Kill which won the 1999 
> Pulitzer Prize.
> Rhodes tells the story of Dr. Lonnie AThens, a criminologist who 
> interviewed men and
> women convicted of murder.? Athens wanted to learn why they killed.? 
> Athens discovered
> what he calls a pattern ofbrutalizationin the lives of the killers.? 
> They were not born
> killers, they became killers.? Athens never uses the concept of evil 
> to help him
> understand human behavior.? Mark, it is possible to pay close 
> attention to humans
> and their actions without seeing through a biblical lens.
> ?
> William Faulkner wrote a novel calledLight In August.? A character in 
> the novel named
> Joe Christmas gets into bad trouble and is brutally killed.? Thirty 
> years after writing the
> novel, Faulkner answered a student's question about the character of 
> Joe Christmas.
> "I think you really can't say thay any man is good or bad.? I grant 
> you there are some
> exceptions, but man is the victim of himself, or his fellows, or his 
> own nature, or his
> environment, but no man is good or bad either.? He tries to do the 
> best he can within his
> rights.? Now with Christmas for instance, he didn't know what he was, 
> and his only
> salvation in order to live with himself was to repudiate mankind, to 
> live outside the human
> race.? And he tried to do that but nobody would let him, the human 
> race itself wouldn't
> let him.? And I don't think he was bad, I think he was tragic.? And 
> his tragedy was that he didn't
> know what he was and would never know, and that to me is the most 
> tragic condition
> that an individual can have -- to not know who he was."? The notion of 
> tragedy, the tragic vision,
> predates the New Testament some 500 years.? It is instructive to look 
> at the human condition
> through more than one vision.? The Christian vision is excellent, 
> nourishing, helpful, but
> it is one vision.? There are others.?
> ?
> I asked Kathleen if she ever thought our three were evil.? "Don't be 
> ridiculous," she said.
> I never one time, for even a nanosecond, thought evil lived in their 
> hearts.? If I learn that
> Beatrice poisons the drinking watrer of Columbus, then I'll listen to 
> you tell me that
> her actions were evil.
> ?
> In the hearts of those around that table in 1937 there was a good dose 
> of orneriness,
> of mischief, and some horniness.?? Evil??? No way.
> ?
> Love --
> Lawrence
> ?
> ?
> ?
> ?
> ?
> ?
> ?
> ?
> ?
> ?
> ?
> ?
>
> _______________________________________________
> Owen mailing list
> Owen@owenconnections.com
> https://my.binhost.com/lists/listinfo/owen
> Full archives at: http://archives.binhost.com/~owen
> _______________________________________________
> Owen mailing list
> Owen@owenconnections.com
> https://my.binhost.com/lists/listinfo/owen
> Full archives at: http://archives.binhost.com/~owen

_______________________________________________
Owen mailing list
Owen@owenconnections.com
https://my.binhost.com/lists/listinfo/owen
Full archives at: http://archives.binhost.com/~owen

From homerowen at earthlink.net  Mon Feb  2 10:55:49 2004
From: homerowen at earthlink.net (Homer Owen)
Date: Thu Mar 24 11:50:08 2005
Subject: [owen] misuse of a dictionary
References: <000d01c3e996$7d106ae0$9989fea9@oemcomputer><00e101c3e99d$54029ae0$a376fea9@compaq06>
	<1850D416-5597-11D8-B371-000A95C48E6C@binhost.com>
Message-ID: <019301c3e9a5$07db6400$a376fea9@compaq06>

I see that my attempt at having a little more level playing field did not
work with you June.  I am sorry.
Love,
Homer
----- Original Message -----
From: "June Newman" <june@binhost.com>
To: <owen@owenconnections.com>
Sent: Monday, February 02, 2004 9:47 AM
Subject: [owen] misuse of a dictionary


Dictionaries tell how words are used by speakers of a particular
language.  That is what Webster's dictionary does.  It does not answer
such questions as whether or not humans'  hearts are evil.  Mr Webster
took a passage from the Bible to help us see how the word evil is used
by speakers of English.   The sentence from Ecclesiastes is an example.
Period.  There is NO editorial agreement or disagreement with the text
of the example.  To use it that way is a misuse of a dictionary.

I think there is a giant leap that I am not able to make between
defining certain behaviors as evil and calling evil the collective
human heart.

Good cheer!  June



On Feb 2, 2004, at 9:00 AM, Homer Owen wrote:

> Evil is a very interesting word. When you talk about being religious
> if we only use scripture to define evil I thought about going to Mr.
> Webster and seeing how he defined evil. I can see in your mind
> Lawrence that your definition of evil and Mark's definition is
> probably not the same. Maybe Mr. Webster can help us have a little
> more level playing field.
>
> 1. Having bad qualities of a natural kind; mischievous; having
> qualities which tend to injury, or to produce mischief.
> 2. Having bad qualities of a moral kind; wicked; corrupt; perverse;
> wrong; as evil thoughts; evil deeds; evil speaking; as an evil
> generation.
> 3. Unfortunate; unhappy; producing sorrow, distress, injury or
> calamity; as evil tidings; evil arrows; evil days.
>
> I could go on with the thoughts of Mr. Webster but this is enough to
> help us get a little better grip on a broader definition of this word
> evil.
>
> I was thinking about our brother Gwynne this morning and I have heard
> him tell of when his older brothers took his cat and hung it. By the
> number one definition above we can see that this was an evil deed.
> Their action produced injury both to the cat and to Gwynne and we can
> say that this act produced mischief.
>
> With this definition I can see that my four sons had evil in them the
> same as our parents would have seen evil in their children.
>
> One other definition that Mr. Webster gave is:
> Depravity; corruption of heart, or disposition to commit wickedness;
> malignity. The heart of the sons of men is full of evil. Eccles. 9.
>
> I see Mr. Webster took a passage from the bible to help us understand
> the condition of our hearts.
>
> Love and prayers for Gwynne today.
> Homer
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: lawrence
> To: owen@owenconnections.com
> Sent:Monday, February 02, 2004 8:11 AM
> Subject:[owen] what lurks in our hearts
>
> Mark --
> If you think me speaking pretty words to a pretty female in the
> service of my
> sexual energies is evil, then so be it. I din't think it was evil in
> 1952 and
> looking back at it now it seems deceitful, unskillful, desperate,
> amusing, but
> not evil. Had I continued the story by telling that she said "NO" and
> I went
> ahead and raped her, then we got us some evil to talk about.
>
> I wrote that the heart is a seat of darkness. To me, darkness is
> where you
> can't see well. When I look into my heart, at times, I see darkness.
> That is, what's going on in there is such a blooming mess that I can't
> pin it down in a word.
>
> You are welcome to go with the thought that your God teaches that man's
> heart is evil. I won't wrangle Bible meanings with you, or with
> others in the
> family who accept and proclaim what they find in the Bible. You ask
> us to not
> take your message as being religious. I take it that way because you
> use
> evidence from no other sources, such as art, history, personal
> experience, or science.
> You anchor your claims about our heart being evil in biblical verses.
> That is a religious position.
>
> I just looked at photos in Christmas cards. Beth and Richie sent a
> wonderful photo
> of their three. I'll bet you a dime that Beth and Richie have never
> for one second
> looked at those three gorgeous youngsters and thought, "Their hearts
> are evil." You and
> Andrea stand tall with your four in the wonderful photo you sent.
> I'll bet you two dimes
> you have never for one second looked at those four splendid children
> and
> thought, "Evil resides in their hearts."
>
> On a winter morning in 1937, some ten or eleven of us would gather
> around the
> breakfast table. Mother or Daddy would read some verses from the
> Bible. One of them
> would pray. We would eat the oatmeal, or the biscuits and eggs.
> There would not have
> been one speck, not one hint, of evil in the hearts at that table.
> There was lots of love,
> some fear probably (it was bad depression times), some anxiety about
> clothes and school,
> concern about health, and loads of determination and energy to head
> straight on into
> the day's offerings.
>
> Richard Rhodes wrote a book calledWhy They Kill which won the 1999
> Pulitzer Prize.
> Rhodes tells the story of Dr. Lonnie AThens, a criminologist who
> interviewed men and
> women convicted of murder. Athens wanted to learn why they killed.
> Athens discovered
> what he calls a pattern ofbrutalizationin the lives of the killers.
> They were not born
> killers, they became killers. Athens never uses the concept of evil
> to help him
> understand human behavior. Mark, it is possible to pay close
> attention to humans
> and their actions without seeing through a biblical lens.
>
> William Faulkner wrote a novel calledLight In August. A character in
> the novel named
> Joe Christmas gets into bad trouble and is brutally killed. Thirty
> years after writing the
> novel, Faulkner answered a student's question about the character of
> Joe Christmas.
> "I think you really can't say thay any man is good or bad. I grant
> you there are some
> exceptions, but man is the victim of himself, or his fellows, or his
> own nature, or his
> environment, but no man is good or bad either. He tries to do the
> best he can within his
> rights. Now with Christmas for instance, he didn't know what he was,
> and his only
> salvation in order to live with himself was to repudiate mankind, to
> live outside the human
> race. And he tried to do that but nobody would let him, the human
> race itself wouldn't
> let him. And I don't think he was bad, I think he was tragic. And
> his tragedy was that he didn't
> know what he was and would never know, and that to me is the most
> tragic condition
> that an individual can have -- to not know who he was." The notion of
> tragedy, the tragic vision,
> predates the New Testament some 500 years. It is instructive to look
> at the human condition
> through more than one vision. The Christian vision is excellent,
> nourishing, helpful, but
> it is one vision. There are others.
>
> I asked Kathleen if she ever thought our three were evil. "Don't be
> ridiculous," she said.
> I never one time, for even a nanosecond, thought evil lived in their
> hearts. If I learn that
> Beatrice poisons the drinking watrer of Columbus, then I'll listen to
> you tell me that
> her actions were evil.
>
> In the hearts of those around that table in 1937 there was a good dose
> of orneriness,
> of mischief, and some horniness. Evil? No way.
>
> Love --
> Lawrence
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Owen mailing list
> Owen@owenconnections.com
> https://my.binhost.com/lists/listinfo/owen
> Full archives at: http://archives.binhost.com/~owen
> _______________________________________________
> Owen mailing list
> Owen@owenconnections.com
> https://my.binhost.com/lists/listinfo/owen
> Full archives at: http://archives.binhost.com/~owen

_______________________________________________
Owen mailing list
Owen@owenconnections.com
https://my.binhost.com/lists/listinfo/owen
Full archives at: http://archives.binhost.com/~owen


From june at binhost.com  Mon Feb  2 11:25:49 2004
From: june at binhost.com (June Newman)
Date: Thu Mar 24 11:50:08 2005
Subject: [owen] misuse of a dictionary
In-Reply-To: <019301c3e9a5$07db6400$a376fea9@compaq06>
References: <000d01c3e996$7d106ae0$9989fea9@oemcomputer><00e101c3e99d$54029ae0$a376fea9@compaq06>
	<1850D416-5597-11D8-B371-000A95C48E6C@binhost.com>
	<019301c3e9a5$07db6400$a376fea9@compaq06>
Message-ID: <7686E3D6-559C-11D8-B371-000A95C48E6C@binhost.com>

Homer, as far as dictionary definitions of the word evil are concerned, 
the field was always level.  Writers of letters to the owen list have 
common understanding of the meaning of the word.  What they do not 
agree about is beyond the scope of a dictionary.

On Feb 2, 2004, at 9:55 AM, Homer Owen wrote:

> I see that my attempt at having a little more level playing field did 
> not
> work with you June.  I am sorry.
> Love,
> Homer
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "June Newman" <june@binhost.com>
> To: <owen@owenconnections.com>
> Sent: Monday, February 02, 2004 9:47 AM
> Subject: [owen] misuse of a dictionary
>
>
> Dictionaries tell how words are used by speakers of a particular
> language.  That is what Webster's dictionary does.  It does not answer
> such questions as whether or not humans'  hearts are evil.  Mr Webster
> took a passage from the Bible to help us see how the word evil is used
> by speakers of English.   The sentence from Ecclesiastes is an example.
> Period.  There is NO editorial agreement or disagreement with the text
> of the example.  To use it that way is a misuse of a dictionary.
>
> I think there is a giant leap that I am not able to make between
> defining certain behaviors as evil and calling evil the collective
> human heart.
>
> Good cheer!  June
>
>
>
> On Feb 2, 2004, at 9:00 AM, Homer Owen wrote:
>
>> Evil is a very interesting word. When you talk about being religious
>> if we only use scripture to define evil I thought about going to Mr.
>> Webster and seeing how he defined evil. I can see in your mind
>> Lawrence that your definition of evil and Mark's definition is
>> probably not the same. Maybe Mr. Webster can help us have a little
>> more level playing field.
>>
>> 1. Having bad qualities of a natural kind; mischievous; having
>> qualities which tend to injury, or to produce mischief.
>> 2. Having bad qualities of a moral kind; wicked; corrupt; perverse;
>> wrong; as evil thoughts; evil deeds; evil speaking; as an evil
>> generation.
>> 3. Unfortunate; unhappy; producing sorrow, distress, injury or
>> calamity; as evil tidings; evil arrows; evil days.
>>
>> I could go on with the thoughts of Mr. Webster but this is enough to
>> help us get a little better grip on a broader definition of this word
>> evil.
>>
>> I was thinking about our brother Gwynne this morning and I have heard
>> him tell of when his older brothers took his cat and hung it. By the
>> number one definition above we can see that this was an evil deed.
>> Their action produced injury both to the cat and to Gwynne and we can
>> say that this act produced mischief.
>>
>> With this definition I can see that my four sons had evil in them the
>> same as our parents would have seen evil in their children.
>>
>> One other definition that Mr. Webster gave is:
>> Depravity; corruption of heart, or disposition to commit wickedness;
>> malignity. The heart of the sons of men is full of evil. Eccles. 9.
>>
>> I see Mr. Webster took a passage from the bible to help us understand
>> the condition of our hearts.
>>
>> Love and prayers for Gwynne today.
>> Homer
>> ----- Original Message -----
>> From: lawrence
>> To: owen@owenconnections.com
>> Sent:Monday, February 02, 2004 8:11 AM
>> Subject:[owen] what lurks in our hearts
>>
>> Mark --
>> If you think me speaking pretty words to a pretty female in the
>> service of my
>> sexual energies is evil, then so be it. I din't think it was evil in
>> 1952 and
>> looking back at it now it seems deceitful, unskillful, desperate,
>> amusing, but
>> not evil. Had I continued the story by telling that she said "NO" and
>> I went
>> ahead and raped her, then we got us some evil to talk about.
>>
>> I wrote that the heart is a seat of darkness. To me, darkness is
>> where you
>> can't see well. When I look into my heart, at times, I see darkness.
>> That is, what's going on in there is such a blooming mess that I can't
>> pin it down in a word.
>>
>> You are welcome to go with the thought that your God teaches that 
>> man's
>> heart is evil. I won't wrangle Bible meanings with you, or with
>> others in the
>> family who accept and proclaim what they find in the Bible. You ask
>> us to not
>> take your message as being religious. I take it that way because you
>> use
>> evidence from no other sources, such as art, history, personal
>> experience, or science.
>> You anchor your claims about our heart being evil in biblical verses.
>> That is a religious position.
>>
>> I just looked at photos in Christmas cards. Beth and Richie sent a
>> wonderful photo
>> of their three. I'll bet you a dime that Beth and Richie have never
>> for one second
>> looked at those three gorgeous youngsters and thought, "Their hearts
>> are evil." You and
>> Andrea stand tall with your four in the wonderful photo you sent.
>> I'll bet you two dimes
>> you have never for one second looked at those four splendid children
>> and
>> thought, "Evil resides in their hearts."
>>
>> On a winter morning in 1937, some ten or eleven of us would gather
>> around the
>> breakfast table. Mother or Daddy would read some verses from the
>> Bible. One of them
>> would pray. We would eat the oatmeal, or the biscuits and eggs.
>> There would not have
>> been one speck, not one hint, of evil in the hearts at that table.
>> There was lots of love,
>> some fear probably (it was bad depression times), some anxiety about
>> clothes and school,
>> concern about health, and loads of determination and energy to head
>> straight on into
>> the day's offerings.
>>
>> Richard Rhodes wrote a book calledWhy They Kill which won the 1999
>> Pulitzer Prize.
>> Rhodes tells the story of Dr. Lonnie AThens, a criminologist who
>> interviewed men and
>> women convicted of murder. Athens wanted to learn why they killed.
>> Athens discovered
>> what he calls a pattern ofbrutalizationin the lives of the killers.
>> They were not born
>> killers, they became killers. Athens never uses the concept of evil
>> to help him
>> understand human behavior. Mark, it is possible to pay close
>> attention to humans
>> and their actions without seeing through a biblical lens.
>>
>> William Faulkner wrote a novel calledLight In August. A character in
>> the novel named
>> Joe Christmas gets into bad trouble and is brutally killed. Thirty
>> years after writing the
>> novel, Faulkner answered a student's question about the character of
>> Joe Christmas.
>> "I think you really can't say thay any man is good or bad. I grant
>> you there are some
>> exceptions, but man is the victim of himself, or his fellows, or his
>> own nature, or his
>> environment, but no man is good or bad either. He tries to do the
>> best he can within his
>> rights. Now with Christmas for instance, he didn't know what he was,
>> and his only
>> salvation in order to live with himself was to repudiate mankind, to
>> live outside the human
>> race. And he tried to do that but nobody would let him, the human
>> race itself wouldn't
>> let him. And I don't think he was bad, I think he was tragic. And
>> his tragedy was that he didn't
>> know what he was and would never know, and that to me is the most
>> tragic condition
>> that an individual can have -- to not know who he was." The notion of
>> tragedy, the tragic vision,
>> predates the New Testament some 500 years. It is instructive to look
>> at the human condition
>> through more than one vision. The Christian vision is excellent,
>> nourishing, helpful, but
>> it is one vision. There are others.
>>
>> I asked Kathleen if she ever thought our three were evil. "Don't be
>> ridiculous," she said.
>> I never one time, for even a nanosecond, thought evil lived in their
>> hearts. If I learn that
>> Beatrice poisons the drinking watrer of Columbus, then I'll listen to
>> you tell me that
>> her actions were evil.
>>
>> In the hearts of those around that table in 1937 there was a good dose
>> of orneriness,
>> of mischief, and some horniness. Evil? No way.
>>
>> Love --
>> Lawrence
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> Owen mailing list
>> Owen@owenconnections.com
>> https://my.binhost.com/lists/listinfo/owen
>> Full archives at: http://archives.binhost.com/~owen
>> _______________________________________________
>> Owen mailing list
>> Owen@owenconnections.com
>> https://my.binhost.com/lists/listinfo/owen
>> Full archives at: http://archives.binhost.com/~owen
>
> _______________________________________________
> Owen mailing list
> Owen@owenconnections.com
> https://my.binhost.com/lists/listinfo/owen
> Full archives at: http://archives.binhost.com/~owen
>
> _______________________________________________
> Owen mailing list
> Owen@owenconnections.com
> https://my.binhost.com/lists/listinfo/owen
> Full archives at: http://archives.binhost.com/~owen
>
>


From m.owen at instarservices.com  Mon Feb  2 12:41:47 2004
From: m.owen at instarservices.com (Mark Owen)
Date: Thu Mar 24 11:50:08 2005
Subject: [owen] what lurks in our hearts
In-Reply-To: <000d01c3e996$7d106ae0$9989fea9@oemcomputer>
Message-ID: <mailman.15.1111683008.15996.owen@owenconnections.com>

Lawrence,

Thanks for your thoughts. Don't know much about art, history or science but
let me get back with you on some of my evidence from personal experience
when I have more time. MO

 

  _____  

From: owen-bounces@owenconnections.com
[mailto:owen-bounces@owenconnections.com] On Behalf Of lawrence
Sent: Monday, February 02, 2004 8:12 AM
To: owen@owenconnections.com
Subject: [owen] what lurks in our hearts

 

Mark --

If you think me speaking pretty words to a pretty female in the service of
my

sexual energies is evil, then so be it.  I din't think it was evil in 1952
and

looking back at it now it seems deceitful, unskillful, desperate, amusing,
but

not evil.  Had I continued the story by telling that she said "NO" and I
went 

ahead and raped her, then we got us some evil to talk about. 

 

I wrote that the heart is a seat of darkness.  To me, darkness is where you

can't see well.  When I look into my heart, at times,  I see darkness.

That is, what's going on in there is such a blooming mess that I can't pin
it down in a word.

 

You are welcome to go with the thought that your God teaches that man's 

heart is evil.  I won't wrangle Bible meanings with you, or with others in
the 

family who accept and proclaim what they find in the Bible.  You ask us to
not

take your message as being religious.  I take it that way because you use

evidence from no other sources, such as art, history, personal experience,
or science.

You anchor your claims about our heart being evil in biblical verses.  That
is a religious position.

 

I just looked at photos in Christmas cards.  Beth and Richie sent a
wonderful photo

of their three.  I'll bet you a dime that Beth and Richie have never for one
second

looked at those three gorgeous youngsters and thought, "Their hearts are
evil."  You and 

Andrea stand tall with your four in the wonderful photo you sent.  I'll bet
you two dimes

you have never for one second looked at those four splendid children and 

thought, "Evil resides in their hearts."

 

On a winter morning in 1937, some ten or eleven of us would gather around
the 

breakfast table.  Mother or Daddy would read some verses from  the Bible.
One of them

would pray.  We would eat the oatmeal, or the biscuits and eggs.  There
would not have 

been one speck, not one hint, of evil in the hearts at that table.  There
was lots of love,

some fear probably (it was bad depression times), some anxiety about clothes
and school, 

concern about health,  and loads of determination and energy to head
straight on into 

the day's offerings.  

 

Richard Rhodes wrote a book called Why They Kill which won the 1999 Pulitzer
Prize.

Rhodes tells the story of Dr. Lonnie AThens, a criminologist who interviewed
men and

women convicted of murder.  Athens wanted to learn why they killed.  Athens
discovered

what he calls a pattern of brutalization in the lives of the killers.  They
were not born

killers, they became killers.  Athens never uses the concept of evil to help
him 

understand human behavior.  Mark, it is possible to pay close attention to
humans 

and their actions without seeing through a biblical lens.

 

William Faulkner wrote a novel called Light In August.  A character in the
novel named 

Joe Christmas gets into bad trouble and is brutally killed.  Thirty years
after writing the 

novel, Faulkner answered a student's question about the character of Joe
Christmas.

"I think you really can't say thay any man is good or bad.  I grant you
there are some

exceptions, but man is the victim of himself, or his fellows, or his own
nature, or his 

environment, but no man is good or bad either.  He tries to do the best he
can within his

rights.  Now with Christmas for instance, he didn't know what he was, and
his only

salvation in order to live with himself was to repudiate mankind, to live
outside the human

race.  And he tried to do that but nobody would let him, the human race
itself wouldn't

let him.  And I don't think he was bad, I think he was tragic.  And his
tragedy was that he didn't 

know what he was and would never know, and that to me is the most tragic
condition

that an individual can have -- to not know who he was."  The notion of
tragedy, the tragic vision,

predates the New Testament some 500 years.  It is instructive to look at the
human condition

through more than one vision.  The Christian vision is excellent,
nourishing, helpful, but

it is one vision.  There are others.  

 

I asked Kathleen if she ever thought our three were evil.  "Don't be
ridiculous," she said.

I never one time, for even a nanosecond, thought evil lived in their hearts.
If I learn that

Beatrice poisons the drinking watrer of Columbus, then I'll listen to you
tell me that 

her actions were evil.

 

In the hearts of those around that table in 1937 there was a good dose of
orneriness,

of mischief, and some horniness.   Evil?   No way.

 

Love --

Lawrence

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

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From Rcowen1947 at aol.com  Mon Feb  2 13:47:08 2004
From: Rcowen1947 at aol.com (Rcowen1947@aol.com)
Date: Thu Mar 24 11:50:08 2005
Subject: [owen] Gwynne
Message-ID: <12b.3a95ff17.2d4ff52c@aol.com>

Daddy was able to sit on  the side of the bed this morning. He is NOT having 
to use a breathing machine, much to the surprise of the doctor.  He looks good 
and his medical staffi seems to be pleased with his recovery.  He will remain 
in ICU until in the morning.  If he can sit up in a chair, then they will 
move him to a room.  The real danger period seems to have passed okay as the 
remaining lung took over the full workload and the heart responded positively, 
thus far.

Mother and I want to thank each of you for your prayers. Nothing can replaced 
the love and support of family.  I will post again when they move him to a 
room, or sooner if need be.

Roger
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From klowen at hsnp.com  Mon Feb  2 17:29:43 2004
From: klowen at hsnp.com (lawrence)
Date: Thu Mar 24 11:50:08 2005
Subject: [owen] evil
Message-ID: <000d01c3e9dc$0ebf4980$9989fea9@oemcomputer>

Homer --
Let's go with evil as depravity, as corrupt, as filled
with wickedness, as malignant.  That is, with the cynical old
preacher who wrote Ecclesiastes.    Okay?
Does that level the playing field?  

You do not know what our parents thought about whether
their children were evil.  You should not presume to know 
what they thought.

Cheers --
Lawrence
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From kmcassels at sbcw-law.com  Mon Feb  2 16:23:39 2004
From: kmcassels at sbcw-law.com (Kelly Mack Cassels)
Date: Thu Mar 24 11:50:08 2005
Subject: [owen] evil
In-Reply-To: <000d01c3e9dc$0ebf4980$9989fea9@oemcomputer>
Message-ID: <004201c3e9d2$d74c1f40$c793fea9@domain1>

For all of us Bible Thumpers, let me put it plainly.  In relation to
God, and His Son, Jesus Christ, all men are evil.  As black is to white,
so are we in relation to the Holiness of God.  Consequently, even the
best of us need a savior, a redeemer, to bridge the gap between us and
our Father.  The question of degree is irrelevant, as all have been
measured and found wanting.  
 
I am glad that my self, my wife, and my three kids don?t have to rely on
our own merit to gain entry into eternity.  I wouldn?t wager on a single
one of us.  Instead, we rely on the merit of the only un-evil man to
walk the earth, Jesus Christ.
 
Peace,
 
Kelly.
 
 
-----Original Message-----
From: owen-bounces@owenconnections.com
[mailto:owen-bounces@owenconnections.com] On Behalf Of lawrence
Sent: Monday, February 02, 2004 3:30 PM
To: owen@owenconnections.com
Subject: [owen] evil
 
Homer --
Let's go with evil as depravity, as corrupt, as filled
with wickedness, as malignant.  That is, with the cynical old
preacher who wrote Ecclesiastes.    Okay?
Does that level the playing field?  
 
You do not know what our parents thought about whether
their children were evil.  You should not presume to know 
what they thought.
 
Cheers --
Lawrence

---
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Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com).
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From homerowen at earthlink.net  Mon Feb  2 15:52:47 2004
From: homerowen at earthlink.net (Homer Owen)
Date: Thu Mar 24 11:50:08 2005
Subject: [owen] misuse of a dictionary
References: <000d01c3e996$7d106ae0$9989fea9@oemcomputer><00e101c3e99d$54029ae0$a376fea9@compaq06><1850D416-5597-11D8-B371-000A95C48E6C@binhost.com><019301c3e9a5$07db6400$a376fea9@compaq06>
	<7686E3D6-559C-11D8-B371-000A95C48E6C@binhost.com>
Message-ID: <000201c3ea63$7caed3c0$a376fea9@compaq06>

June, back in my gift plaque business we had a saying that went something
like this.  I know that you think you understand what I am saying, but your
really don't.
I disagree with you in your assestment that we all have a common
understanding of the meaning of the word.  I wish this were true but no, I
don't think so.
This was the reason for giving a dictionary rendering of the word - evil.
Homer
----- Original Message -----
From: "June Newman" <june@binhost.com>
To: <owen@owenconnections.com>
Sent: Monday, February 02, 2004 10:25 AM
Subject: Re: [owen] misuse of a dictionary


> Homer, as far as dictionary definitions of the word evil are concerned,
> the field was always level.  Writers of letters to the owen list have
> common understanding of the meaning of the word.  What they do not
> agree about is beyond the scope of a dictionary.
>
> On Feb 2, 2004, at 9:55 AM, Homer Owen wrote:
>
> > I see that my attempt at having a little more level playing field did
> > not
> > work with you June.  I am sorry.
> > Love,
> > Homer
> > ----- Original Message -----
> > From: "June Newman" <june@binhost.com>
> > To: <owen@owenconnections.com>
> > Sent: Monday, February 02, 2004 9:47 AM
> > Subject: [owen] misuse of a dictionary
> >
> >
> > Dictionaries tell how words are used by speakers of a particular
> > language.  That is what Webster's dictionary does.  It does not answer
> > such questions as whether or not humans'  hearts are evil.  Mr Webster
> > took a passage from the Bible to help us see how the word evil is used
> > by speakers of English.   The sentence from Ecclesiastes is an example.
> > Period.  There is NO editorial agreement or disagreement with the text
> > of the example.  To use it that way is a misuse of a dictionary.
> >
> > I think there is a giant leap that I am not able to make between
> > defining certain behaviors as evil and calling evil the collective
> > human heart.
> >
> > Good cheer!  June
> >
> >
> >
> > On Feb 2, 2004, at 9:00 AM, Homer Owen wrote:
> >
> >> Evil is a very interesting word. When you talk about being religious
> >> if we only use scripture to define evil I thought about going to Mr.
> >> Webster and seeing how he defined evil. I can see in your mind
> >> Lawrence that your definition of evil and Mark's definition is
> >> probably not the same. Maybe Mr. Webster can help us have a little
> >> more level playing field.
> >>
> >> 1. Having bad qualities of a natural kind; mischievous; having
> >> qualities which tend to injury, or to produce mischief.
> >> 2. Having bad qualities of a moral kind; wicked; corrupt; perverse;
> >> wrong; as evil thoughts; evil deeds; evil speaking; as an evil
> >> generation.
> >> 3. Unfortunate; unhappy; producing sorrow, distress, injury or
> >> calamity; as evil tidings; evil arrows; evil days.
> >>
> >> I could go on with the thoughts of Mr. Webster but this is enough to
> >> help us get a little better grip on a broader definition of this word
> >> evil.
> >>
> >> I was thinking about our brother Gwynne this morning and I have heard
> >> him tell of when his older brothers took his cat and hung it. By the
> >> number one definition above we can see that this was an evil deed.
> >> Their action produced injury both to the cat and to Gwynne and we can
> >> say that this act produced mischief.
> >>
> >> With this definition I can see that my four sons had evil in them the
> >> same as our parents would have seen evil in their children.
> >>
> >> One other definition that Mr. Webster gave is:
> >> Depravity; corruption of heart, or disposition to commit wickedness;
> >> malignity. The heart of the sons of men is full of evil. Eccles. 9.
> >>
> >> I see Mr. Webster took a passage from the bible to help us understand
> >> the condition of our hearts.
> >>
> >> Love and prayers for Gwynne today.
> >> Homer
> >> ----- Original Message -----
> >> From: lawrence
> >> To: owen@owenconnections.com
> >> Sent:Monday, February 02, 2004 8:11 AM
> >> Subject:[owen] what lurks in our hearts
> >>
> >> Mark --
> >> If you think me speaking pretty words to a pretty female in the
> >> service of my
> >> sexual energies is evil, then so be it. I din't think it was evil in
> >> 1952 and
> >> looking back at it now it seems deceitful, unskillful, desperate,
> >> amusing, but
> >> not evil. Had I continued the story by telling that she said "NO" and
> >> I went
> >> ahead and raped her, then we got us some evil to talk about.
> >>
> >> I wrote that the heart is a seat of darkness. To me, darkness is
> >> where you
> >> can't see well. When I look into my heart, at times, I see darkness.
> >> That is, what's going on in there is such a blooming mess that I can't
> >> pin it down in a word.
> >>
> >> You are welcome to go with the thought that your God teaches that
> >> man's
> >> heart is evil. I won't wrangle Bible meanings with you, or with
> >> others in the
> >> family who accept and proclaim what they find in the Bible. You ask
> >> us to not
> >> take your message as being religious. I take it that way because you
> >> use
> >> evidence from no other sources, such as art, history, personal
> >> experience, or science.
> >> You anchor your claims about our heart being evil in biblical verses.
> >> That is a religious position.
> >>
> >> I just looked at photos in Christmas cards. Beth and Richie sent a
> >> wonderful photo
> >> of their three. I'll bet you a dime that Beth and Richie have never
> >> for one second
> >> looked at those three gorgeous youngsters and thought, "Their hearts
> >> are evil." You and
> >> Andrea stand tall with your four in the wonderful photo you sent.
> >> I'll bet you two dimes
> >> you have never for one second looked at those four splendid children
> >> and
> >> thought, "Evil resides in their hearts."
> >>
> >> On a winter morning in 1937, some ten or eleven of us would gather
> >> around the
> >> breakfast table. Mother or Daddy would read some verses from the
> >> Bible. One of them
> >> would pray. We would eat the oatmeal, or the biscuits and eggs.
> >> There would not have
> >> been one speck, not one hint, of evil in the hearts at that table.
> >> There was lots of love,
> >> some fear probably (it was bad depression times), some anxiety about
> >> clothes and school,
> >> concern about health, and loads of determination and energy to head
> >> straight on into
> >> the day's offerings.
> >>
> >> Richard Rhodes wrote a book calledWhy They Kill which won the 1999
> >> Pulitzer Prize.
> >> Rhodes tells the story of Dr. Lonnie AThens, a criminologist who
> >> interviewed men and
> >> women convicted of murder. Athens wanted to learn why they killed.
> >> Athens discovered
> >> what he calls a pattern ofbrutalizationin the lives of the killers.
> >> They were not born
> >> killers, they became killers. Athens never uses the concept of evil
> >> to help him
> >> understand human behavior. Mark, it is possible to pay close
> >> attention to humans
> >> and their actions without seeing through a biblical lens.
> >>
> >> William Faulkner wrote a novel calledLight In August. A character in
> >> the novel named
> >> Joe Christmas gets into bad trouble and is brutally killed. Thirty
> >> years after writing the
> >> novel, Faulkner answered a student's question about the character of
> >> Joe Christmas.
> >> "I think you really can't say thay any man is good or bad. I grant
> >> you there are some
> >> exceptions, but man is the victim of himself, or his fellows, or his
> >> own nature, or his
> >> environment, but no man is good or bad either. He tries to do the
> >> best he can within his
> >> rights. Now with Christmas for instance, he didn't know what he was,
> >> and his only
> >> salvation in order to live with himself was to repudiate mankind, to
> >> live outside the human
> >> race. And he tried to do that but nobody would let him, the human
> >> race itself wouldn't
> >> let him. And I don't think he was bad, I think he was tragic. And
> >> his tragedy was that he didn't
> >> know what he was and would never know, and that to me is the most
> >> tragic condition
> >> that an individual can have -- to not know who he was." The notion of
> >> tragedy, the tragic vision,
> >> predates the New Testament some 500 years. It is instructive to look
> >> at the human condition
> >> through more than one vision. The Christian vision is excellent,
> >> nourishing, helpful, but
> >> it is one vision. There are others.
> >>
> >> I asked Kathleen if she ever thought our three were evil. "Don't be
> >> ridiculous," she said.
> >> I never one time, for even a nanosecond, thought evil lived in their
> >> hearts. If I learn that
> >> Beatrice poisons the drinking watrer of Columbus, then I'll listen to
> >> you tell me that
> >> her actions were evil.
> >>
> >> In the hearts of those around that table in 1937 there was a good dose
> >> of orneriness,
> >> of mischief, and some horniness. Evil? No way.
> >>
> >> Love --
> >> Lawrence
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >> _______________________________________________
> >> Owen mailing list
> >> Owen@owenconnections.com
> >> https://my.binhost.com/lists/listinfo/owen
> >> Full archives at: http://archives.binhost.com/~owen
> >> _______________________________________________
> >> Owen mailing list
> >> Owen@owenconnections.com
> >> https://my.binhost.com/lists/listinfo/owen
> >> Full archives at: http://archives.binhost.com/~owen
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > Owen mailing list
> > Owen@owenconnections.com
> > https://my.binhost.com/lists/listinfo/owen
> > Full archives at: http://archives.binhost.com/~owen
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > Owen mailing list
> > Owen@owenconnections.com
> > https://my.binhost.com/lists/listinfo/owen
> > Full archives at: http://archives.binhost.com/~owen
> >
> >
>
> _______________________________________________
> Owen mailing list
> Owen@owenconnections.com
> https://my.binhost.com/lists/listinfo/owen
> Full archives at: http://archives.binhost.com/~owen


From homerowen at earthlink.net  Mon Feb  2 16:00:23 2004
From: homerowen at earthlink.net (Homer Owen)
Date: Thu Mar 24 11:50:08 2005
Subject: [owen] evil
References: <000d01c3e9dc$0ebf4980$9989fea9@oemcomputer>
Message-ID: <000301c3ea63$7e8c6d60$a376fea9@compaq06>

Lawrence--
I truly do not know what our parents thought about their children being evil.  Please show me where I said they did.
Love,
Homer
  ----- Original Message ----- 
  From: lawrence 
  To: owen@owenconnections.com 
  Sent: Monday, February 02, 2004 4:29 PM
  Subject: [owen] evil


  Homer --
  Let's go with evil as depravity, as corrupt, as filled
  with wickedness, as malignant.  That is, with the cynical old
  preacher who wrote Ecclesiastes.    Okay?
  Does that level the playing field?  

  You do not know what our parents thought about whether
  their children were evil.  You should not presume to know 
  what they thought.

  Cheers --
  Lawrence


------------------------------------------------------------------------------


  _______________________________________________
  Owen mailing list
  Owen@owenconnections.com
  https://my.binhost.com/lists/listinfo/owen
  Full archives at: http://archives.binhost.com/~owen
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From klowen at hsnp.com  Tue Feb  3 12:30:24 2004
From: klowen at hsnp.com (lawrence)
Date: Thu Mar 24 11:50:08 2005
Subject: [owen] Some more evil -- what fun!
Message-ID: <001801c3ea7b$6f37a2e0$9989fea9@oemcomputer>

Homer --
I apologize if I misread your sentence:  "With this definition I can see that my four sons had evil in them the same as our parents would have seen evil in their children."  

Not long ago I bought a book off the cheap table called Heart by
Lance Morrow.  I loved it.  He writes about his heart attacks, the
surgeries, his anger, and he attempts to make some sense of 
the anger he reported on, as a journalist, in Sarajevo and 
Palestine and Kosovo.  Fine book.

Morrow has a new book out called Evil.  I look forward to reading it.

Love --
Lawrence
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From JCassels at picsoft.com  Tue Feb  3 10:51:54 2004
From: JCassels at picsoft.com (Jeff Cassels)
Date: Thu Mar 24 11:50:09 2005
Subject: [owen] The Heart
Message-ID: <4D1C3F132207AF4BA521B4E90E97ABF5284369@mail.picsoft.com>

An excellent book on the heart from a Christian perspective is called "Waking
the Dead" by John Eldridge, author of "Wild at Heart", which addresses the
heart also.
 
The point he makes is that after you accept Christ, your heart is good.  He
encourages believers to accept that and live it as truth.  God has given you
a new heart.  In the garden, God pronounced his creation as good and our
heart was good.  As fallen man, there can be no doubt that our heart harbors
evil.  To believe otherwise is the standard humanistic view.  They have no
sound evidence because each and everyone of us has done evil in our lives at
some point.  It becomes a game of scale, I have done more good than evil,
therefore my heart must be good.  The problem is that God does not measures
us this way.  His question is - "What have you done with Jesus Christ?"
 
Have a good day,
Jeff
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From m.owen at instarservices.com  Tue Feb  3 12:03:58 2004
From: m.owen at instarservices.com (Mark Owen)
Date: Thu Mar 24 11:50:09 2005
Subject: [owen] The Heart
In-Reply-To: <4D1C3F132207AF4BA521B4E90E97ABF5284369@mail.picsoft.com>
Message-ID: <!~!AAAAABsRsQwMLExKmd4XAbfxS8hkdCEA@instarservices.com>

I have read wild at heart and would challenge everyone (professing Christian
or not) to read it. Mark

 

  _____  

From: owen-bounces@owenconnections.com
[mailto:owen-bounces@owenconnections.com] On Behalf Of Jeff Cassels
Sent: Tuesday, February 03, 2004 9:52 AM
To: owen@owenconnections.com
Subject: [owen] The Heart

 

An excellent book on the heart from a Christian perspective is called
"Waking the Dead" by John Eldridge, author of "Wild at Heart", which
addresses the heart also.

 

The point he makes is that after you accept Christ, your heart is good.  He
encourages believers to accept that and live it as truth.  God has given you
a new heart.  In the garden, God pronounced his creation as good and our
heart was good.  As fallen man, there can be no doubt that our heart harbors
evil.  To believe otherwise is the standard humanistic view.  They have no
sound evidence because each and everyone of us has done evil in our lives at
some point.  It becomes a game of scale, I have done more good than evil,
therefore my heart must be good.  The problem is that God does not measures
us this way.  His question is - "What have you done with Jesus Christ?"

 

Have a good day,
Jeff

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From kmcassels at sbcw-law.com  Tue Feb  3 12:19:05 2004
From: kmcassels at sbcw-law.com (Kelly Mack Cassels)
Date: Thu Mar 24 11:50:09 2005
Subject: [owen] The Heart
In-Reply-To: <!~!AAAAABsRsQwMLExKmd4XAbfxS8hkdCEA@instarservices.com>
Message-ID: <!~!AAAAABsRsQwMLExKmd4XAbfxS8hkdCEA@sbcw-law.com>

Ditto.
 
Kelly
 
-----Original Message-----
From: owen-bounces@owenconnections.com
[mailto:owen-bounces@owenconnections.com] On Behalf Of Mark Owen
Sent: Tuesday, February 03, 2004 10:04 AM
To: owen@owenconnections.com
Subject: RE: [owen] The Heart
 
I have read wild at heart and would challenge everyone (professing Christian
or not) to read it. Mark
 
   _____  

 

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From Gayleowen at aol.com  Tue Feb  3 12:35:09 2004
From: Gayleowen at aol.com (Gayleowen@aol.com)
Date: Thu Mar 24 11:50:09 2005
Subject: [owen] Update on Gwynne
Message-ID: <18f.250cd9cc.2d5135cd@aol.com>

Dr. came by this morning and advised that Gwynne has quite a bit of 
congestion around his heart and that Gwynne is still in the danger zone and will be in 
ICU at least another 48 hours.  Dr. said they just dont want to take any 
chances.  Yesterday they had to take him off the pain medication for a couple of 
hours due to his slow response.  Ruth was having to wake him up between each 
bite of his lunch.  They tried to treat his pain when it returned with oral 
medication, but it didnt seem to help so they have put him back on the pain med in 
his IV.  Roger said he looks and seems good.  They are going to try and get 
him up in a recliner today.  Will keep you posted.

Gayle
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From klowen at hsnp.com  Tue Feb  3 15:29:15 2004
From: klowen at hsnp.com (lawrence)
Date: Thu Mar 24 11:50:09 2005
Subject: [owen] some full-bore evil
Message-ID: <001901c3ea94$64fbf880$9989fea9@oemcomputer>

This evil harbored in the heart seems pretty lightweight
stuff as I contemplate my loved ones.  To think that Jesus
went through the terrors of crucifixion to save my mother, 
and Jewell, and Gramps Stagner, because of the evil 
in their hearts, strikes me as simply ludicrous.  

Members of our family have experienced evil first hand:
drought, diabetes, cancer, economic depression, 
empirical pretensions of Japan, racial/ political/military
demagoguery of Hitler, arthritis, strokes. . . . . . .

Jeff, do you check your "standard humanistic view" 
against standards established by the Falwell/Robertson
Bureau of Standards?

Cheers --
Lawrence
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From joshbelbeck at comcast.net  Tue Feb  3 13:57:47 2004
From: joshbelbeck at comcast.net (Josh Belbeck)
Date: Thu Mar 24 11:50:09 2005
Subject: [owen] some full-bore evil
In-Reply-To: <001901c3ea94$64fbf880$9989fea9@oemcomputer>
Message-ID: <mailman.16.1111683009.15996.owen@owenconnections.com>

Uncle Lawrence:

 

Because Jesus went through the Crucifixion for your Mother, and Jewell,
Gramps Stagner,  should not be ludicrous..but instead should show you the
true love of Christ.  He Suffered because He wants for you to enjoy His gift
to you regardless of the amount of sin or evil in our lives.


On this same note.  Since every man has sinned and fallen short of the Glory
of God does that then mean that the gap between me and God is somehow
shorter because I haven't sinned as much as joe schmoe?  No..the point is
that there is an unbridgeable gap..regardless if I am separated a nanometer,
or 10,000 miles.I am still separated from God and the only person that can
bridge that gap is Christ.  

 

Josh  

 

  _____  

From: owen-bounces@owenconnections.com
[mailto:owen-bounces@owenconnections.com] On Behalf Of lawrence
Sent: Tuesday, February 03, 2004 2:29 PM
To: owen@owenconnections.com
Subject: [owen] some full-bore evil

 

This evil harbored in the heart seems pretty lightweight

stuff as I contemplate my loved ones.  To think that Jesus

went through the terrors of crucifixion to save my mother, 

and Jewell, and Gramps Stagner, because of the evil 

in their hearts, strikes me as simply ludicrous.  

 

Members of our family have experienced evil first hand:

drought, diabetes, cancer, economic depression, 

empirical pretensions of Japan, racial/ political/military

demagoguery of Hitler, arthritis, strokes. . . . . . .

 

Jeff, do you check your "standard humanistic view" 

against standards established by the Falwell/Robertson

Bureau of Standards?

 

Cheers --

Lawrence

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From jowen at greenhills.net  Tue Feb  3 14:13:58 2004
From: jowen at greenhills.net (Jack)
Date: Thu Mar 24 11:50:09 2005
Subject: [owen] evil
Message-ID: <200402031903.i13J390D012507@ghlin4.greenhills.net>

      Homer;  You told a tale on me that is incorrect. It was a dog i 
hung instead of a cat. I am not proud of that part of my life but i had 
reasons.I didnt hang cats because they made their own livings 
catching their own food. Dogs eat human food, so the dog was 
getting food my little sister and brothers needed.
          Love you all Jack


From jcassels_2000 at hotmail.com  Tue Feb  3 15:20:34 2004
From: jcassels_2000 at hotmail.com (Jeff Cassels)
Date: Thu Mar 24 11:50:09 2005
Subject: [owen] some full-bore evil
Message-ID: <BAY10-F121miA5USisv00052ac4@hotmail.com>

Lawrence, it's standard for you to point to Christians who live faulty lives 
and I've made my point to you about that before, so I'll skip it this time.

People who feel like they need a Savior, Grandmother Owen & MamMa Jewell, to 
name a couple, did not think it ludicrous.  It's casting aside selfish pride 
and putting all of our eggs in the basket of the One who came out of the 
grave and proved that he was who he said he was, God in the flesh.  The only 
one who could lay down his life for the the rest of us, because He who had 
no sin was made sin.

Jeff


>From: "lawrence" <klowen@hsnp.com>
>Reply-To: owen@owenconnections.com
>To: <owen@owenconnections.com>
>Subject: [owen] some full-bore evil
>Date: Tue, 3 Feb 2004 12:29:15 -0800
>
>This evil harbored in the heart seems pretty lightweight
>stuff as I contemplate my loved ones.  To think that Jesus
>went through the terrors of crucifixion to save my mother,
>and Jewell, and Gramps Stagner, because of the evil
>in their hearts, strikes me as simply ludicrous.
>
>Members of our family have experienced evil first hand:
>drought, diabetes, cancer, economic depression,
>empirical pretensions of Japan, racial/ political/military
>demagoguery of Hitler, arthritis, strokes. . . . . . .
>
>Jeff, do you check your "standard humanistic view"
>against standards established by the Falwell/Robertson
>Bureau of Standards?
>
>Cheers --
>Lawrence
>_______________________________________________
>Owen mailing list
>Owen@owenconnections.com
>https://my.binhost.com/lists/listinfo/owen
>Full archives at: http://archives.binhost.com/~owen

_________________________________________________________________
Let the new MSN Premium Internet Software make the most of your high-speed 
experience. http://join.msn.com/?pgmarket=en-us&page=byoa/prem&ST=1


From kmcassels at sbcw-law.com  Tue Feb  3 15:32:50 2004
From: kmcassels at sbcw-law.com (Kelly Mack Cassels)
Date: Thu Mar 24 11:50:09 2005
Subject: [owen] some full-bore evil
In-Reply-To: <001901c3ea94$64fbf880$9989fea9@oemcomputer>
Message-ID: <005e01c3ea94$ea040fe0$c793fea9@domain1>

Uncle Lawrence,
 
?To think that Jesus went through the terrors of crucifixion to save my
mother, 
and Jewell, and Gramps Stagner, because of the evil in their hearts,
strikes me as simply ludicrous?
 
God told Paul what you would say 2000 years ago, and through Paul,
provided all the answer I need at 1st Corinthians 1:18:
 
For the message of the cross is foolishness to those who are perishing,
but to us who are being saved it is the power of God.
 
For it is written:
 
  "I will destroy the wisdom of the wise;
    the intelligence of the intelligent I will frustrate."
 
God is in the business of frustrating the wisdom of the world.  What He
did and what Jesus suffered for us all, makes no sense.  I agree.  I
don?t know why either did what they did for me, or anyone else.  I am
just glad they did.
I love it when the Bible provides an answer today from Living Words
written 2000 years ago.  
 
I hope you get the sense today that their sufferings were for you too.
God loves you so much, he allows Himself to be thought ludicrous to
reach you.  
 
Peace,
 
Kelly
 
-----Original Message-----
From: owen-bounces@owenconnections.com
[mailto:owen-bounces@owenconnections.com] On Behalf Of lawrence
Sent: Tuesday, February 03, 2004 1:29 PM
To: owen@owenconnections.com
Subject: [owen] some full-bore evil
 
This evil harbored in the heart seems pretty lightweight
stuff as I contemplate my loved ones.  To think that Jesus
went through the terrors of crucifixion to save my mother, 
and Jewell, and Gramps Stagner, because of the evil 
in their hearts, strikes me as simply ludicrous.  
 
Members of our family have experienced evil first hand:
drought, diabetes, cancer, economic depression, 
empirical pretensions of Japan, racial/ political/military
demagoguery of Hitler, arthritis, strokes. . . . . . .
 
Jeff, do you check your "standard humanistic view" 
against standards established by the Falwell/Robertson
Bureau of Standards?
 
Cheers --
Lawrence

---
Incoming mail is certified Virus Free.
Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com).
Version: 6.0.576 / Virus Database: 365 - Release Date: 1/30/04


---
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From june at binhost.com  Tue Feb  3 18:55:23 2004
From: june at binhost.com (june@binhost.com)
Date: Thu Mar 24 11:50:09 2005
Subject: [owen] A washingtonpost.com article from: june@binhost.com
Message-ID: <418342.1075852523938.JavaMail.wlogic@sane8>

You have been sent this message from june@binhost.com as a courtesy of washingtonpost.com 
 
 Personal Message:
 Are we fighting the Iraqi war to liberate both men and women?
 
 WASHINGTON IN BRIEF
 
 Iraqi Women Are in Danger Of Losing Rights, Democrats Say <br>Iraqi women are in danger of losing many rights to Islamic law, and the U.S. occupation authority is not doing enough to prevent it, Democratic lawmakers said yesterday.
 
 To view the entire article, go to http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A7340-2004Feb2.html?referrer=emailarticle
 
 
 Would you like to send this article to a friend? Go to 
http://www.washingtonpost.com/ac2/wp-dyn/admin/emailfriend?contentId=A7340-2004Feb2&sent=no&referrer=emailarticle
 
 
Visit washingtonpost.com today for the latest in:

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Entertainment - http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-srv/eg/section/main/index.html?referrer=emailarticle

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Want the latest news in your inbox? Check out washingtonpost.com's e-mail newsletters:

http://www.washingtonpost.com/ac2/wp-dyn?node=admin/email&referrer=emailarticle



© 2004 The Washington Post Company


From Rcowen1947 at aol.com  Tue Feb  3 19:50:04 2004
From: Rcowen1947 at aol.com (Rcowen1947@aol.com)
Date: Thu Mar 24 11:50:09 2005
Subject: [owen] Gwynne
Message-ID: <18d.2506bab7.2d519bbc@aol.com>

Daddy had a difficult afternoon.  The main reason is the way the pain 
medication is being delivered to him.  An epidural is inserted in his back and allows 
a constant flow.  They tried to take it out yesterday, but were unable to 
control the pain any other way.  He did sit up this afternoon for a while in a 
chair.  He has been talking out of his head most of the afternoon.  Mother is 
resting at the motel for a while and after dinner will stop by just to say good 
nite and then try to get a good nite's sleep.  She is planning on going home 
tomorrow afternoon to spend the nite and come back on Thursday morning.  
Hopefully Dad will get to move to a room on Thursday.

There are several couples from their church who will be able to come each day 
and give mother a break after Daddy is moved to a room.

If you have any questions, call me 336-391-3444.

Roger
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From june at binhost.com  Tue Feb  3 22:28:01 2004
From: june at binhost.com (June Newman)
Date: Thu Mar 24 11:50:09 2005
Subject: [owen] Gwynne
In-Reply-To: <18d.2506bab7.2d519bbc@aol.com>
References: <18d.2506bab7.2d519bbc@aol.com>
Message-ID: <2287DE4B-56C2-11D8-AFE5-000A95C48E6C@binhost.com>

Roger,
Thank you for the reports on your Daddy.  It must be hard to watch him 
in pain.  Love to all of you.  June

On Feb 3, 2004, at 6:50 PM, Rcowen1947@aol.com wrote:

> Daddy had a difficult afternoon.? The main reason is the way the pain 
> medication is being delivered to him.? An epidural is inserted in his 
> back and allows a constant flow.? They tried to take it out yesterday, 
> but were unable to control the pain any other way.? He did sit up this 
> afternoon for a while in a chair.? He has been talking out of his head 
> most of the afternoon.? Mother is resting at the motel for a while and 
> after dinner will stop by just to say good nite and then try to get a 
> good nite's sleep.? She is planning on going home tomorrow afternoon 
> to spend the nite and come back on Thursday morning.? Hopefully Dad 
> will get to move to a room on Thursday.
>
> There are several couples from their church who will be able to come 
> each day and give mother a break after Daddy is moved to a room.
>
> If you have any questions, call me 336-391-3444.
>
> Roger_______________________________________________
> Owen mailing list
> Owen@owenconnections.com
> https://my.binhost.com/lists/listinfo/owen
> Full archives at: http://archives.binhost.com/~owen


From res09jcs at verizon.net  Tue Feb  3 23:47:45 2004
From: res09jcs at verizon.net (res09jcs)
Date: Thu Mar 24 11:50:09 2005
Subject: [owen] Text
Message-ID: <005c01c3eada$0bb77b50$5b1a4104@home>

     I was watching a show on discovery channel and it made me think and 
question some of the text of the Bible. It was on who authored the Bible
it raised many questions that many learned men had difficulty ansewering
much like the debates I read on the owen connection.  I have noticed that 
some have given that what they have  read to be absolute and yet it 
would appear that several authors text may have been miss interrupted.
   The question then becomes who's truth does one believe? I was brought
up that the King James version was written from the Hebrew scrolls and 
 was interrupted correctly for us English speaking folks.
Also that God would reveal unto me the true meaning of the text as a 
Christian. Man has been putting his spin on the Bible for thousands of years
and every interpretation is absolute. I guess its interesting to me that 
EVIL seems to be flowing an awful lot and I just have a little trouble with
that interpretation. My Grandmother and Father and Mother and Aunt 
Jewel and on down the list of relatives people that I have the utmost 
respect for I don't buy the EVIL thing. I'm sure that they all have sinned 
and fallen short of the glory of god and yet thru the acceptance of Jesus
as their Lord and Savior they have been saved this is what they believed
in their hearts and souls that is absolute. They all live still in our hearts 
and their goodness is still strong in all who knew them because they made 
the choice in their lives to do good.  Was the text wrong for them? Is the 
text different for you and your belief?  I do believe that what ever a person
believes if you choose to live your life in such a manner that is good and 
you share your good with others you cannot be EVIL.  Gary Ridgeway 
murdered over 50 women with no remorse now I feel he is EVIL. Sadam
murdered his own people EVIL.  Hitler EVIL and this list goes on and on.
For me I guess I believe we are all going to screw up and we can all be 
forgiven for our errors that in itself  does not make you evil.  It's what's
in your Heart and in your actions what ever you believe that helps  you 
arrive to do the right thing.
   My Love to All
Dean Owen
  P.S   To Gwynne ,Ruth ,Rodger and Gayle I know that you are going thru
a stressful time it warms my heart to hear that Gwynne is doing so well and 
you are all in my thoughts and prayers. Hang in there. 
 

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From klowen at hsnp.com  Wed Feb  4 10:02:24 2004
From: klowen at hsnp.com (lawrence)
Date: Thu Mar 24 11:50:09 2005
Subject: [owen] evil again
Message-ID: <001301c3eb2f$e6887a40$9989fea9@oemcomputer>

Kelly, Josh, Jeff --
I am impressed by your determination to testify to your faith.  Good for you!

All those lessons, services, prayer meetings, and revivals I attended at First Baptist in Hereford
taught me the sayings, the verses, and the dogmatic assertions that you post on owenconnections.
At Hardin-Simmons I passed the required Bible courses.  In graduate school l read a good deal of 
Christian matter written by Augustine, Donne, Milton, Johnson, Edwards, Kierkegaard, St John of the
Cross, Dante et al.  At the U of Kansas in 1962 I took a course in Milton.  The prof had studied
at the U of Chicago and was a strong advocate of the Aristotelian view of things, as Aristotle had
been christianized by Aquinas.  Two of my buddies in that class had graduated from Jesuit colleges.  
I've never enjoyed  more challenging and stimulating mental work than when we wrestled with 
Paradise Lost.  A magnificent epic poem.  The dramatization of Satan's entry into  Eden is 
particularly good.  Here is Milton's depiction of what happened to Satan when he saw Eve:

                                Her heavenly form
    Angelic, but more soft, and feminine,
    Her graceful innocence, her every air
    Of gesture or least action overawed
    His malice, and with rapine sweet bereaved
    His fierceness of the fierce intent it brought.
    That space the evil one abstracted stood
    From his own evil, and for the time remained
    Stupidly good, of enmity disarmed,
    Of guile, of hate, of envy, of revenge.
    But the hot Hell that always in him burns,
    Though in mid Heaven, soon ended his delight. . . .
    Then soon fierce hate he recollects . . . . .

Milton puts it all into his great poem:  Eve's intellect is weaker than Adam's; by eating the fruit they gain access
to powers of reason which will give them grief; the act of disobeying gives birth to death and misery;  etc.

For over thirty years at Gustavus I taught English Lit, which means that I taught literature totally informed
by the Christian vision.  One persistent theme in English Lit after Darwin and the Higher Criticism was the 
loss of faith story.  Many English intellectuals stopped Believing the Christian story to be a true story.

The Christian story makes no sense to me as a true story.  To me, it is one of the great sustaining myths.
It nourishes believers.  It sustains them.  It fills their llives with meaning and hope.  It has inspired painters,
musicians, architects, and poets to make glorious works of human intelligence and imagination.  Christians
have created great schools and hospitals.  The Christian story energizes people to do good.  To me,
it is not a true story.

And I think the notion of original sin is a great big whopper.  When those preachers stood in the pulpit
at First Baptist in Hereford and warned the people  that they were sinners, that their souls 
were in danger because the evil Satan was working in them, that their only hope was to believe --
here insert the proper formulas --  I refuse to believe that Donnie Owen, Blanche Moseley, Della Stagner, 
Gerald Wilson, Gleaves Owen, and a host opf others had a speck of evil in them.  Not a speck.  They
were filled with the determination to be good and to do good.  They served their loved ones, their 
community,  they laughed while earting fried chicken and gravy, and they played forty two with gusto. 
They were not evil.  I refuse to believe that hateful judgement of thos good people.  I know how 
important it is to keep the story intact, and the story says all of us have evil in our hearts.  
It's a nifty story

Love --
Lawrence, but it is not true about my loved ones.











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From Dowen at wcvt.com  Wed Feb  4 08:41:41 2004
From: Dowen at wcvt.com (Owen, Dan)
Date: Thu Mar 24 11:50:09 2005
Subject: [owen] evil again
Message-ID: <3367C8BA324FD311AD06009027514849015F3D78@tnet.wcvt.com>

Uncle Lawrence,
 
What a great post!  Certainly a lot of food for thought.  In your last
paragraph you seem to contradict a previous post about knowing what is
another's heart.  You can refuse to believe some of the Owen elders had no
evil in their hearts, but how do we really know?  I submit that everyone has
the capacity for evil but many, especially the fine folks you mention chose
not to take action on their capacity for evil.  I agree with a previous post
you had that it is impossible to know what is another's heart.  I think
there is a difference between knowing and believing.  Perhaps that
difference is faith.
 
Love you all Dan O..................  

-----Original Message-----
From: owen-bounces@owenconnections.com
[mailto:owen-bounces@owenconnections.com]On Behalf Of lawrence
Sent: Wednesday, February 04, 2004 10:02 AM
To: owen@owenconnections.com
Subject: [owen] evil again


Kelly, Josh, Jeff --
I am impressed by your determination to testify to your faith.  Good for
you!
 
All those lessons, services, prayer meetings, and revivals I attended at
First Baptist in Hereford
taught me the sayings, the verses, and the dogmatic assertions that you post
on owenconnections.
At Hardin-Simmons I passed the required Bible courses.  In graduate school l
read a good deal of 
Christian matter written by Augustine, Donne, Milton, Johnson, Edwards,
Kierkegaard, St John of the
Cross, Dante et al.  At the U of Kansas in 1962 I took a course in Milton.
The prof had studied
at the U of Chicago and was a strong advocate of the Aristotelian view of
things, as Aristotle had
been christianized by Aquinas.  Two of my buddies in that class had
graduated from Jesuit colleges.  
I've never enjoyed  more challenging and stimulating mental work than when
we wrestled with 
Paradise Lost.  A magnificent epic poem.  The dramatization of Satan's entry
into  Eden is 
particularly good.  Here is Milton's depiction of what happened to Satan
when he saw Eve:
 
                                Her heavenly form
    Angelic, but more soft, and feminine,
    Her graceful innocence, her every air
    Of gesture or least action overawed
    His malice, and with rapine sweet bereaved
    His fierceness of the fierce intent it brought.
    That space the evil one abstracted stood
    From his own evil, and for the time remained
    Stupidly good, of enmity disarmed,
    Of guile, of hate, of envy, of revenge.
    But the hot Hell that always in him burns,
    Though in mid Heaven, soon ended his delight. . . .
    Then soon fierce hate he recollects . . . . .
 
Milton puts it all into his great poem:  Eve's intellect is weaker than
Adam's; by eating the fruit they gain access
to powers of reason which will give them grief; the act of disobeying gives
birth to death and misery;  etc.
 
For over thirty years at Gustavus I taught English Lit, which means that I
taught literature totally informed
by the Christian vision.  One persistent theme in English Lit after Darwin
and the Higher Criticism was the 
loss of faith story.  Many English intellectuals stopped Believing the
Christian story to be a true story.
 
The Christian story makes no sense to me as a true story.  To me, it is one
of the great sustaining myths.
It nourishes believers.  It sustains them.  It fills their llives with
meaning and hope.  It has inspired painters,
musicians, architects, and poets to make glorious works of human
intelligence and imagination.  Christians
have created great schools and hospitals.  The Christian story energizes
people to do good.  To me,
it is not a true story.
 
And I think the notion of original sin is a great big whopper.  When those
preachers stood in the pulpit
at First Baptist in Hereford and warned the people  that they were sinners,
that their souls 
were in danger because the evil Satan was working in them, that their only
hope was to believe --
here insert the proper formulas --  I refuse to believe that Donnie Owen,
Blanche Moseley, Della Stagner, 
Gerald Wilson, Gleaves Owen, and a host opf others had a speck of evil in
them.  Not a speck.  They
were filled with the determination to be good and to do good.  They served
their loved ones, their 
community,  they laughed while earting fried chicken and gravy, and they
played forty two with gusto. 
They were not evil.  I refuse to believe that hateful judgement of thos good
people.  I know how 
important it is to keep the story intact, and the story says all of us have
evil in our hearts.  
It's a nifty story
 
Love --
Lawrence, but it is not true about my loved ones.
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 

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From SAOwen at TarrantCounty.com  Wed Feb  4 10:06:54 2004
From: SAOwen at TarrantCounty.com (SAOwen@TarrantCounty.com)
Date: Thu Mar 24 11:50:09 2005
Subject: [owen] Even if you're evil, baby hold me tight
Message-ID: <E50788FA14C4D511906100065B04E8FC011E0721@itcrex004.tarrantcounty.com>

You've got to change your evil ways... baby
Before I stop loving you. - - Santana
 
 
 
I'm lonely like Adam, you're evil like Eve
I shouldn't take forbidden fruit 'cause I believe
I'll be heading straight for heartache
I should cut loose and run
But if loving you means heartache
Heartache, here I come

You're not the angel that I dreamed about
But you're the devil I don't want to live without
A woman's a woman, a man is a man
I can't be free I'm just putty in your hands
Who cares about tomorrow, I need your love tonight

And even if you're evil, baby hold me tight  - - Elvis


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From homerowen at earthlink.net  Wed Feb  4 10:53:14 2004
From: homerowen at earthlink.net (Homer Owen)
Date: Thu Mar 24 11:50:09 2005
Subject: [owen] evil again
References: <001301c3eb2f$e6887a40$9989fea9@oemcomputer>
Message-ID: <00ea01c3eb38$b52802a0$a376fea9@compaq06>

It is interesting to read your list of folks that you feel did not have evil in their hearts.  These were folks that professed that Jesus had died for them and had given them new hearts.  Wonderful testimony of what the blood of Jesus claims to do when it is applied to our evil lives.  
I was raised the same way you were and made a profession of faith as a twelve year old, but I was not converted until I was 34.  I don't understand all of what happened in August of 1968 other than I truly acknowledged Jesus as my Lord.  I am still working on this, but I discovered that it was no longer hard to be good.  I had a desire to quick smoking for years but could not overcome the craving and yet it all left me in August of 1968.
I had a lot of dislike or hate in  me for many people and this immediately changed.  It was so dramatic that I went to a friend and told him that I had never had a desire to hug another man in my life other than my father and now I wanted to hug everybody.  I asked him if he thought I might have homosexual tendencies.  I laugh at that now but it was a real concern then to have my entire being flooded with love.  
I guess my change in 1968 was what happened to the folks on your list unless they just came out of the womb that way.  What ever happened to me I am eternally grateful that it happened and I give the credit to Jesus. I no longer have to work at being good.  This does not mean that I never slip or sin but it is not my nature to do these things anylonger.
This love of Jesus thing completely changed my perspective on life which includes religion and politics and profession and race.  In Israel we lend a helping hand to the Arabs as much as we do to the Jews.  I don't agree with either on their religion but we love them both.
When Dad would take his belt and whip up on me I think he was trying to drive the evil out of me.  Praise God that Jesus took a beating for me and delivered me from evil.
Love,
Homer
  ----- Original Message ----- 
  From: lawrence 
  To: owen@owenconnections.com 
  Sent: Wednesday, February 04, 2004 9:02 AM
  Subject: [owen] evil again


  Kelly, Josh, Jeff --
  I am impressed by your determination to testify to your faith.  Good for you!

  All those lessons, services, prayer meetings, and revivals I attended at First Baptist in Hereford
  taught me the sayings, the verses, and the dogmatic assertions that you post on owenconnections.
  At Hardin-Simmons I passed the required Bible courses.  In graduate school l read a good deal of 
  Christian matter written by Augustine, Donne, Milton, Johnson, Edwards, Kierkegaard, St John of the
  Cross, Dante et al.  At the U of Kansas in 1962 I took a course in Milton.  The prof had studied
  at the U of Chicago and was a strong advocate of the Aristotelian view of things, as Aristotle had
  been christianized by Aquinas.  Two of my buddies in that class had graduated from Jesuit colleges.  
  I've never enjoyed  more challenging and stimulating mental work than when we wrestled with 
  Paradise Lost.  A magnificent epic poem.  The dramatization of Satan's entry into  Eden is 
  particularly good.  Here is Milton's depiction of what happened to Satan when he saw Eve:

                                  Her heavenly form
      Angelic, but more soft, and feminine,
      Her graceful innocence, her every air
      Of gesture or least action overawed
      His malice, and with rapine sweet bereaved
      His fierceness of the fierce intent it brought.
      That space the evil one abstracted stood
      From his own evil, and for the time remained
      Stupidly good, of enmity disarmed,
      Of guile, of hate, of envy, of revenge.
      But the hot Hell that always in him burns,
      Though in mid Heaven, soon ended his delight. . . .
      Then soon fierce hate he recollects . . . . .

  Milton puts it all into his great poem:  Eve's intellect is weaker than Adam's; by eating the fruit they gain access
  to powers of reason which will give them grief; the act of disobeying gives birth to death and misery;  etc.

  For over thirty years at Gustavus I taught English Lit, which means that I taught literature totally informed
  by the Christian vision.  One persistent theme in English Lit after Darwin and the Higher Criticism was the 
  loss of faith story.  Many English intellectuals stopped Believing the Christian story to be a true story.

  The Christian story makes no sense to me as a true story.  To me, it is one of the great sustaining myths.
  It nourishes believers.  It sustains them.  It fills their llives with meaning and hope.  It has inspired painters,
  musicians, architects, and poets to make glorious works of human intelligence and imagination.  Christians
  have created great schools and hospitals.  The Christian story energizes people to do good.  To me,
  it is not a true story.

  And I think the notion of original sin is a great big whopper.  When those preachers stood in the pulpit
  at First Baptist in Hereford and warned the people  that they were sinners, that their souls 
  were in danger because the evil Satan was working in them, that their only hope was to believe --
  here insert the proper formulas --  I refuse to believe that Donnie Owen, Blanche Moseley, Della Stagner, 
  Gerald Wilson, Gleaves Owen, and a host opf others had a speck of evil in them.  Not a speck.  They
  were filled with the determination to be good and to do good.  They served their loved ones, their 
  community,  they laughed while earting fried chicken and gravy, and they played forty two with gusto. 
  They were not evil.  I refuse to believe that hateful judgement of thos good people.  I know how 
  important it is to keep the story intact, and the story says all of us have evil in our hearts.  
  It's a nifty story

  Love --
  Lawrence, but it is not true about my loved ones.













------------------------------------------------------------------------------


  _______________________________________________
  Owen mailing list
  Owen@owenconnections.com
  https://my.binhost.com/lists/listinfo/owen
  Full archives at: http://archives.binhost.com/~owen
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From shannonmknight at bellsouth.net  Wed Feb  4 11:38:58 2004
From: shannonmknight at bellsouth.net (Shannon Knight)
Date: Thu Mar 24 11:50:09 2005
Subject: [owen] Update on Gwynne
Message-ID: <002701c3eb3d$635a4aa0$6401a8c0@RogerOwen>

The doctor said Daddy was not any better this morning but he was not any worse either.  The pulmonologist is going to perform a couple of difficult procedures today to try to ease the fluid around the heart.  We'll let you know the results as early as possible.

Roger
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From kmcassels at sbcw-law.com  Wed Feb  4 12:17:21 2004
From: kmcassels at sbcw-law.com (Kelly Mack Cassels)
Date: Thu Mar 24 11:50:10 2005
Subject: [owen] evil again
In-Reply-To: <001301c3eb2f$e6887a40$9989fea9@oemcomputer>
Message-ID: <002e01c3eb42$c2e0ff00$c793fea9@domain1>

Uncle Lawrence,
 
Thanks for your thoughts.  
 
I can tell you that I don?t understand the universe, I don?t know how
God works for good in all things that seem so horrible to me, I don?t
understand eternity, and I don?t know why God loves me so much He
allowed Jesus to die for me, along with so many other questions.  
 
I have set my Faith in God and I believe His Word to be true.  The older
I get, the more I lean on Him.  When I was younger, I labeled myself a
Christian, but I certainly wasn?t allowing the Lord to guide my
decisions, or my life.  I thought He?d wreck my life if I gave it to
Him.  And in a way, He has.  He has wrecked my plans, and replaced them
with His own.  
 
With 20/20 hindsight, I see now why I am a New Mexican rather than a
Texan.  I know why He led me to marry my High School sweetheart.  I know
why He put me in this law firm, and I know why I landed in my Church.  I
can look back at where I?ve been, and see God?s handiwork in my life.  I
can see His hand more clearly in my defeats than in my victories.  My
goal now is to try to find Him in my life today.  What would He have me
do today?  I need to learn to quit ?kicking against the goads,? to put
it another way, today.  It is not easy.  I war against myself all day
long.  
 
I am a long way from perfect, and I don?t need the Lord less than anyone
else.  In fact, I think He is required to spend more time on me than 99%
of the other of his creation.  I am glad He is patient.
 
I know that God is real.  He has touched my life in ways that scream out
to me ?Kelly, I am here.  I do care what happens in the very details of
your life.  I love you.?  I see Him in the trees and taste Him in the
fog.  I see Him in the sleeping faces of my children and in the smell in
the back of their necks as they lay there dreaming.  I hear Him in the
thunder.  Songs come to me that I know were sent from Him.  He has
changed my life, and dozens of others in my life, in real and tangible
ways that I can put my finger on.  He has changed my big brother, so
that he and I talk of spiritual things now.  I see Him at work in my
sister.  We pray for our mother together now.  I can see Him softening
her hard heart, changing her anger to understanding, telling her that He
has never left her and He never will.  He has transformed my own father.
He used my Mema Jewell to start me on my Walk with Him.  My mind turns
to Him in the moments before I drift to sleep.  He dwells in my dreams
and talks to me there sometimes.  He calms me in the first moments after
that stinking alarm clock quits beeping at me.  I could give you a half
dozen examples when God showed up to me and proved His existence
supernaturally, but you would find them fantastic and unbelievable.  You
might say they were figments of my imagination.  I must tell you that I
war with my intellect all the time.  There is a part of me that says
?You are a fool to believe.?  I listen, and then I know in an instant
the source of that lie, and I decide to be a fool for Jesus Christ.  It
feels good to defeat the Father of Lies.
 
He has taken me and used me in ways that I never dreamed of or asked
for.  It has been a whale of a ride.  I have had a hand in starting 54
Bible Study Classes across the country, from California to Florida and
from Texas to New York.  There are 4500 kids each week studying the
Bible because God used us to train up leaders for them.  I hope to train
up leaders for 1000 others before it?s over.  You can see our Website,
if you care to, at HYPERLINK
"http://www.teencbs.org/"http://www.teencbs.org/ .  We will have a class
in Germany soon.  We have only been in existence for about 5 years.
This is supernatural.  
 
This He has done through an evil person.  Heck, I?ll admit it.  My heart
turns to evil every time it gets a chance.  I have done evil things.  I
am sorry to admit that I probably will again, and I hate that.  God does
not turn His back when I fail.  He does not expect me to be perfect.  He
does want me to set my face towards Him and strive toward the example
set by His Son, Jesus Christ.  It really is not all that complicated.  I
am to strive to love God and His Son Jesus with all my heart, mind and
soul, and to love my neighbor as myself.  All of the Bible boils down to
those two commands.  I set my facet to that, and I have done all that
God requires of me.  He does not require perfection, which is the only
way I could come.  That is the Good News of Jesus Christ.  Jesus lives.
I spoke to Him this morning.
 
Anyway, you expounded on why you did not believe the Bible.  I have told
you why I do.  I sure did enjoy the tone of your last post, and I will
try to better emulate that tone myself in the future.
 
Peace, 
 
Kelly
 
 

---
Incoming mail is certified Virus Free.
Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com).
Version: 6.0.576 / Virus Database: 365 - Release Date: 1/30/04


---
Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free.
Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com).
Version: 6.0.576 / Virus Database: 365 - Release Date: 1/30/04
 
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From jcassels_2000 at hotmail.com  Wed Feb  4 12:44:19 2004
From: jcassels_2000 at hotmail.com (Jeff Cassels)
Date: Thu Mar 24 11:50:10 2005
Subject: [owen] evil again
Message-ID: <BAY10-F30136j926FeG0002bd57@hotmail.com>

Roger, I am praying for your Dad and family!!

Lawrence, I agree with you.  These family members that you listed were as 
saintly as they come and I would be fool to call them evil, particularly on 
the connection.

But...

None of them were born of a virgin, made the blind to see, made the lame 
walk, made the deaf hear and so on.  If they did, they might have been 
crucified.

Evil is a harsh word.  Sin is what I am talking about.  The Bible, which I 
know you do not hold as God's Word, says all have sinned and come short of 
God's Glory.  The Greek word for "sin" literally means "to miss the mark."  
And if we miss the mark at all, we need a Savior.

Love,
Jeff


>From: "lawrence" <klowen@hsnp.com>
>Reply-To: owen@owenconnections.com
>To: <owen@owenconnections.com>
>Subject: [owen] evil again
>Date: Wed, 4 Feb 2004 07:02:24 -0800
>
>Kelly, Josh, Jeff --
>I am impressed by your determination to testify to your faith.  Good for 
>you!
>
>All those lessons, services, prayer meetings, and revivals I attended at 
>First Baptist in Hereford
>taught me the sayings, the verses, and the dogmatic assertions that you 
>post on owenconnections.
>At Hardin-Simmons I passed the required Bible courses.  In graduate school 
>l read a good deal of
>Christian matter written by Augustine, Donne, Milton, Johnson, Edwards, 
>Kierkegaard, St John of the
>Cross, Dante et al.  At the U of Kansas in 1962 I took a course in Milton.  
>The prof had studied
>at the U of Chicago and was a strong advocate of the Aristotelian view of 
>things, as Aristotle had
>been christianized by Aquinas.  Two of my buddies in that class had 
>graduated from Jesuit colleges.
>I've never enjoyed  more challenging and stimulating mental work than when 
>we wrestled with
>Paradise Lost.  A magnificent epic poem.  The dramatization of Satan's 
>entry into  Eden is
>particularly good.  Here is Milton's depiction of what happened to Satan 
>when he saw Eve:
>
>                                 Her heavenly form
>     Angelic, but more soft, and feminine,
>     Her graceful innocence, her every air
>     Of gesture or least action overawed
>     His malice, and with rapine sweet bereaved
>     His fierceness of the fierce intent it brought.
>     That space the evil one abstracted stood
>     From his own evil, and for the time remained
>     Stupidly good, of enmity disarmed,
>     Of guile, of hate, of envy, of revenge.
>     But the hot Hell that always in him burns,
>     Though in mid Heaven, soon ended his delight. . . .
>     Then soon fierce hate he recollects . . . . .
>
>Milton puts it all into his great poem:  Eve's intellect is weaker than 
>Adam's; by eating the fruit they gain access
>to powers of reason which will give them grief; the act of disobeying gives 
>birth to death and misery;  etc.
>
>For over thirty years at Gustavus I taught English Lit, which means that I 
>taught literature totally informed
>by the Christian vision.  One persistent theme in English Lit after Darwin 
>and the Higher Criticism was the
>loss of faith story.  Many English intellectuals stopped Believing the 
>Christian story to be a true story.
>
>The Christian story makes no sense to me as a true story.  To me, it is one 
>of the great sustaining myths.
>It nourishes believers.  It sustains them.  It fills their llives with 
>meaning and hope.  It has inspired painters,
>musicians, architects, and poets to make glorious works of human 
>intelligence and imagination.  Christians
>have created great schools and hospitals.  The Christian story energizes 
>people to do good.  To me,
>it is not a true story.
>
>And I think the notion of original sin is a great big whopper.  When those 
>preachers stood in the pulpit
>at First Baptist in Hereford and warned the people  that they were sinners, 
>that their souls
>were in danger because the evil Satan was working in them, that their only 
>hope was to believe --
>here insert the proper formulas --  I refuse to believe that Donnie Owen, 
>Blanche Moseley, Della Stagner,
>Gerald Wilson, Gleaves Owen, and a host opf others had a speck of evil in 
>them.  Not a speck.  They
>were filled with the determination to be good and to do good.  They served 
>their loved ones, their
>community,  they laughed while earting fried chicken and gravy, and they 
>played forty two with gusto.
>They were not evil.  I refuse to believe that hateful judgement of thos 
>good people.  I know how
>important it is to keep the story intact, and the story says all of us have 
>evil in our hearts.
>It's a nifty story
>
>Love --
>Lawrence, but it is not true about my loved ones.
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>_______________________________________________
>Owen mailing list
>Owen@owenconnections.com
>https://my.binhost.com/lists/listinfo/owen
>Full archives at: http://archives.binhost.com/~owen

_________________________________________________________________
Scope out the new MSN Plus Internet Software — optimizes dial-up to the max! 
   http://join.msn.com/?pgmarket=en-us&page=byoa/plus&ST=1


From Gayleowen at aol.com  Wed Feb  4 20:47:38 2004
From: Gayleowen at aol.com (Gayleowen@aol.com)
Date: Thu Mar 24 11:50:10 2005
Subject: [owen] Update on Gwynne
Message-ID: <87.479165e.2d52faba@aol.com>

Just spoke with Ruth and Gwynne is still about the same.  They did do the 
procedure to remove some fluid around his heart and removed "quite a bit".  The 
pain medicine is still causing him to be incoherent and rather cantankerous - 
that might be a good sign :)
the doctor will check tomorrow and see what the result is of removing the 
fluid - whether its better or builds back up.

Jean is spending the night with Ruth in a hotel in Tyler tonight.  Ruth said 
to let everyone know they are having a slumber party.  Apparently it is 
raining cats and dogs in Tyler and they have decided not to go back to the hospital 
for the late visitation tonight, but to call and check on Gwynne and then 
hopefully Ruth can get a good night's sleep.  She is pretty exhausted right now.  
Also, Ruth's brother, Winford (from Oklahoma City) is coming tomorrow and will 
be staying in Tyler with Ruth for a few days.  

Thank you all for your concern and your thoughts and prayers.

Gayle
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From bbowen at wtrt.net  Wed Feb  4 22:55:46 2004
From: bbowen at wtrt.net (Bobby Owen)
Date: Thu Mar 24 11:50:10 2005
Subject: [owen] Fw: Fw: Beautiful!!!
Message-ID: <004d01c3eb9b$efd3cfc0$9909f6d0@bbowen>


----- Original Message ----- 
From: Doug Manning 
To: Owen Bobby 
Sent: Wednesday, February 04, 2004 10:13 PM
Subject: Fwd: Fw: Beautiful!!!




Begin forwarded message:


  From: "Edwin E. Vineyard" <eevineyard@cox.net>
  Date: Wed Feb 4, 2004 5:55:40 PM US/Pacific
  To: "Wanza Merrifield" <wanmerri@cableone.net>, "Ron Garner" <roseygarner@yahoo.com>, "Marvin Laubach" <mlaubach@enid.com>, "Joe Ann Hibler" <jahibler@swbell.net>, "Jim Fields" <JLRVFields@aol.com>, "Jack Louise Trout" <jacloutr@poncacity.net>, "Gerry Green" <gergre@pldi.net>, "Floretta Bellmon" <floretta@nodanet.net>, "Ed R Vineyard" <vineyard87@cox.net>, "Doug Manning" <dman7@cox.net>, "Carri Bell" <Carribell@aol.com>, "Carol Gregory" <cgregory@rose.edu>, "Carolyn McLarty" <mclarty@pldi.net>, "Bob Allen" <RLA522@msn.com>, "Betty Boggs Hill" <bettybhill@earthlink.net>, "Bernice Clark" <blclark@kansas.net>
  Subject: Fw: Beautiful!!!

   
  ----- Original Message -----
  From: Gene Wheeler
  To: Wilkerson, Lynne
  Cc: Blevins, Jeane ; Brown, Olene ; Ellison, Pattie Rae ; Liddell, Jeannine ; McVay, Bill & Cathy ; Radabaugh, Betty ; Stone, Irene ; Sutton, Marquita &Donny ; Vineyard, Ed
  Sent: Wednesday, February 04, 2004 6:28 PM
  Subject: Fw: Beautiful!!!

   
  Gene Wheeler
  gwheel@brightok.net
  ----- Original Message -----
  From: Rose Derzapf
  To: Gene Wheeler
  Sent: Wednesday, February 04, 2004 4:16 PM
  Subject: FW: Beautiful!!!

   

   

  -----Original Message-----
  From: Norma Ruiz-Hearne [mailto:norma.hearne@esc9.net]
  Sent: Thursday, January 29, 2004 12:34 PM
  To: Cheryl; Rose Derzapf; virginia garcia; Christy Milliot
  Subject: FW: Beautiful!!!

   

   

   

  -----Original Message-----
  From: Lake, Gloria [mailto:Lakeg@cfbisd.edu]
  Sent: Thursday, January 29, 2004 10:15 AM
  To: Aunt Emma; Thompson, Brenda; Epley, Gene; Laura; Congrove, Cheryl; Helen; Hindman, Rhonda; Jane W; Kelly; Lee Garrison; Norma; Tina; jac & royce; jai; MaryAnne; Patti; Shirley; Sue; Vicki
  Subject: FW: Beautiful!!!

   

  You will definitely need kleenix for this one.

   

   

  -----Original Message-----
  From: Dowis, Debbie
  Sent: Thursday, January 29, 2004 9:52 AM
  To: Lake, Gloria
  Subject: FW: Beautiful!!!

   

   




--------------------------------------------------------------------------------








                  Right before the jetway door closed, I scrambled aboard the plane going from LA to Chicago, lugging my laptop and overstuffed briefcase. It was the first leg of an important business trip a few weeks before Christmas, and I was running late. I had a ton of work to catch up on. Half wishing, half praying I muttered, "Please God, do me a favor; let there be an empty seat next to mine, I don't need any distractions."



                  I was on the aisle in a two seat row. Across sat a businesswoman with her nose buried in a newspaper. No problem. But in the seat beside mine, next to the window, was a young boy wearing a big red tag around his neck: Minor Traveling Unattended.

                  The kid sat perfectly still, hands in his lap, eyes straight ahead. He'd probably been told never to talk to strangers. Good, I thought.

                  Then the flight attendant came by. "Michael, I have to sit down because we're about to take off," she said to the little boy. "This nice man will answer any of your questions, okay?"

                  Did I have a choice? I offered my hand, and Michael shook it twice, straight up and down.

                  "Hi, I'm Jerry," I said. "You must be about seven years old."

                  "I'll bet you don't have any kids," he responded.

                  "Why do you think that? Sure I do." I took out my wallet to show him pictures.

                  "Because I'm six."

                  "I was way off, huh?"

                  The captains' voice came over the speakers, "Flight attendants, prepare for takeoff."

                  Michael pulled his seat belt tighter and gripped the armrests as the jet engines roared.

                  I leaned over, "Right about now, I usually say a prayer. I asked God to keep the plane safe and to send angels to protect us."

                  "Amen," he said, then added, "but I'm not afraid of dying. I'm not afraid because my mama's already in Heaven."

                  "I'm sorry." I said.

                  "Why are you sorry?" he asked, peering out the window as the plane lifted off.

                  "I'm sorry you don't have your mama here."

                  My briefcase jostled at my feet, reminding me of all the work I needed to do.

                  "Look at those boats down there!" Michael said as the plane banked over the Pacific. "Where are they going?"

                  "Just going sailing, having a good time. And there's probably a fishing boat full of guys like you and me."

                  "Doing what?" he asked.

                  "Just fishing, maybe for bass or tuna. Does your dad ever take you fishing?"

                  "I don't have a dad," Michael sadly responded.

                  Only six years old and he didn't have a dad, and his Mom had died, and here he was flying halfway across the country all by himself. The least I could do was make sure he had a good flight. With my foot I pushed my briefcase under my seat.

                  "Do they have a bathroom here?" he asked, squirming a little.

                  "Sure," I said, "let me take you there."

                  I showed him how to work the "Occupied" sign, and what buttons to push on the sink, then he closed the door. When he emerged, he wore a wet shirt and a huge smile

                  "That sink shoots water everywhere!"

                  The attendants smiled.

                  Michael got the VIP treatment from the crew during snack time. I took out my laptop and tried to work on a talk I had to give, but my mind kept going to Michael. I couldn't stop looking at the crumpled grocery bag on the floor by his seat. He'd told me that everything he owned was in that bag. Poor kid.

                  While Michael was getting a tour of the cockpit the flight attendant told me his grandmother would pick him up in Chicago. In the seat pocket a large manila envelope held all the paperwork regarding his custody. He came back explaining, "I got wings! I got cards! I got more peanuts. I saw the pilot and he said I could come back anytime!"

                  For a while he stared at the manila envelope.

                  "What are you thinking?" I asked Michael.

                  He didn't answer. He buried his face in his hands and started sobbing. It had been years since I'd heard a little one cry like that. My kids were grown -- still I don't think they'd ever cried so hard. I rubbed his back and wondered where the flight attendant was.

                  "What's the matter buddy?" I asked.

                  All I got were muffled words "I don't know my grandma. Mama didn't want her to come visit and see her sick. What if Grandma doesn't want me? Where will I go?"

                  "Michael, do you remember the Christmas story? Mary and Joseph and the baby Jesus? Remember how they came to Bethlehem just before Jesus was born? It was late and cold, and they didn't have anywhere to stay, no family, no hotels, not even hospitals where babies could be born. Well, God was watching out for them. He found them a place to stay; a stable with animals."

                  "Wait, wait," Michael tugged on my sleeve. "I know Jesus. I remember now." Then he closed his eyes, lifted his head and began to sing. His voice rang out with a strength that rocked his tiny frame. "Jeeesus looooves me--thiiiiiis I knowwwwwww. For the Biiiiiible tells meeeeee sooooo....."

                  Passengers turned or stood up to see the little boy who made the large sound. Michael didn't notice his audience. With his eyes shut tight and voice lifted high, he was in a good place.

                  "You've got a great voice," I told him when he was done. "I've never heard anyone sing like that."

                  "Mama said God gave me good pipes just like my grandma's," he said. "My grandma loves to sing, she sings in her church choir."

                  "Well, I'll bet you can sing there, too. The two of you will be running that choir."

                  The seat belt sign came on as we approached O'Hare. The flight attendant came by and said we just have a few minutes now, but she told Michael it's important that he put on his seat belt. People started stirring in their seats, like the kids before the final school bell. By the time the seat belt sign went off, passengers were rushing down the aisle. Michael and I stayed seated.

                  "Are you gonna go with me?" he asked.

                  "I wouldn't miss it for the world buddy!" I assured him.

                  Clutching his bag and the manila envelope in one hand, he grabbed my hand with the other. The two of us followed the flight attendant down the jetway. All the noises of the airport seemed to fill the corridor.

                  Michael stopped, flipping his hand from mine, he dropped to his knees. His mouth quivered. His eyes brimmed with tears.

                  "What's wrong Michael? I'll carry you if you want."

                  He opened his mouth and moved his lips, but it was as if his words were stuck in his throat. When I knelt next to him, he grabbed my neck. I felt his warm, wet face as he whispered in my ear, "I want my mama!"

                  I tried to stand, but Michael squeezed my neck even harder. Then I heard a rattle of footsteps on the corridor's metal floor.

                  "Is that you, baby?"

                  I couldn't see the woman behind me, but I heard the warmth in her voice.

                  "Oh baby," she cried. "Come here. Grandma loves you so much. I need a hug, baby. Let go of that nice man." She knelt beside Michael and me.

                  Michael's grandma stroked his arm. I smelled a hint of orange blossoms.

                  "You've got folks waiting for you out there, Michael. Do you know that you've got aunts, and uncles and cousins?"

                  She patted his skinny shoulders and started humming. Then she lifted her head and sang. I wondered if the flight attendant told her what to sing, or maybe she just knew what was right. Her strong, clear voice filled the passageway, "Jesus loves me -- this I know..."

                  Michael's gasps quieted. Still holding him, I rose, nodded hello to his grandma and watched her pick up the grocery bag. Right before we got to the doorway to the terminal, Michael loosened his grip around my neck and reached for his grandma.

                  As soon as she walked across the threshold with him, cheers erupted. From the size of the crowed, I figured family, friends, pastors, elders, deacons, choir members and most of the neighbors had come to meet Michael. A tall man tugged on Michael's ear and pulled off the red sign around his neck. It no longer applied.

                  As I made my way to the gate for my connecting flight, I barely noticed the weight of my overstuffed briefcase and laptop. I started to wonder who would be in the seat next to mine this time...And I smiled.


                 

            Well, what did you think?  Needed some kleenex didn't you?   My computer is old and won't handle sending kleenex -

            sorry.



            God bless us everyone.                  






             


           

                 
                 
                 

           


     

           
           
           

     



--------------------------------------------------------------------------------








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From klowen at hsnp.com  Thu Feb  5 10:05:43 2004
From: klowen at hsnp.com (lawrence)
Date: Thu Mar 24 11:50:10 2005
Subject: [owen] deerp in Texans' hearts
Message-ID: <001201c3ebf9$a957e640$9989fea9@oemcomputer>

Thank you to all of you who wrote about evil and sin in our 
hearts.   Homer, I agree with you that our folks in First Baptist 
in Hereford had clean hearts.  You attribute that to the power of
Jesus' love for our folks.   You and I disagree about the condition
of their hearts before their encounters with Jesus.  I think they 
were in good shape before and by loving the teachings of Jesus
their hearts got livelier,  got energized.   Note that I put the stress on the 
consequences of our family members being the active lovers.  
There's a huge body of evidence about the positive consequences 
of actively loving someone or some activity or cause outside the self.  

Those of you  who think I am a purebred Bush hater, get your smelling
salts, for I am about to say something positive about our president.
He did the right thing by extending the deadline for the 9/11 commission,
and it is sure enough the right thing to get a commission inquiring into
the intelligence community.  

In late spring 1989, Kathleen and I were on holiday in Normandy.  We
had been walking along the beach near St. Lo, looking out at Mont 
Saint Michel, gabbing about the families playing on the beach.  We stopped
to look around.  Kathleen nudged me and had me look down at the 
woman sunbathing about two feet from where we stood.  The woman
was bare breasted and  I hadn't even noticed.  Turned out, there were
several females on that beach who wore nothing to cover their breasts.
It's a wonder I survived all that indecency.  

Love --
Lawrence 

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From Gayleowen at aol.com  Thu Feb  5 09:30:43 2004
From: Gayleowen at aol.com (Gayleowen@aol.com)
Date: Thu Mar 24 11:50:10 2005
Subject: [owen] Good News
Message-ID: <51.3a589c2a.2d53ad93@aol.com>

Ruth got to the hospital this morning and Gwynne is sitting up in a chair and 
drinking a cup of coffee!!  He is very coherent this morning and the doctor 
said there is very little fluid around his heart today.  if all continues to go 
well, he will be moved from ICU to a room tomorrow.


Gayle
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From Dowen at wcvt.com  Thu Feb  5 09:30:59 2004
From: Dowen at wcvt.com (Owen, Dan)
Date: Thu Mar 24 11:50:10 2005
Subject: [owen] deerp in Texans' hearts
Message-ID: <3367C8BA324FD311AD06009027514849015F3D83@tnet.wcvt.com>

Lawrence,
Was that Janet Jackson on the beach?
Love you all Dan O............
 

-----Original Message-----
From: owen-bounces@owenconnections.com
[mailto:owen-bounces@owenconnections.com]On Behalf Of lawrence
Sent: Thursday, February 05, 2004 10:06 AM
To: owen@owenconnections.com
Subject: [owen] deerp in Texans' hearts


Thank you to all of you who wrote about evil and sin in our 
hearts.   Homer, I agree with you that our folks in First Baptist 
in Hereford had clean hearts.  You attribute that to the power of
Jesus' love for our folks.   You and I disagree about the condition
of their hearts before their encounters with Jesus.  I think they 
were in good shape before and by loving the teachings of Jesus
their hearts got livelier,  got energized.   Note that I put the stress on
the 
consequences of our family members being the active lovers.  
There's a huge body of evidence about the positive consequences 
of actively loving someone or some activity or cause outside the self.  
 
Those of you  who think I am a purebred Bush hater, get your smelling
salts, for I am about to say something positive about our president.
He did the right thing by extending the deadline for the 9/11 commission,
and it is sure enough the right thing to get a commission inquiring into
the intelligence community.  
 
In late spring 1989, Kathleen and I were on holiday in Normandy.  We
had been walking along the beach near St. Lo, looking out at Mont 
Saint Michel, gabbing about the families playing on the beach.  We stopped
to look around.  Kathleen nudged me and had me look down at the 
woman sunbathing about two feet from where we stood.  The woman
was bare breasted and  I hadn't even noticed.  Turned out, there were
several females on that beach who wore nothing to cover their breasts.
It's a wonder I survived all that indecency.  
 
Love --
Lawrence 
 

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From m.owen at instarservices.com  Thu Feb  5 10:00:23 2004
From: m.owen at instarservices.com (Mark Owen)
Date: Thu Mar 24 11:50:10 2005
Subject: [owen] Good News
In-Reply-To: <51.3a589c2a.2d53ad93@aol.com>
Message-ID: <mailman.17.1111683010.15996.owen@owenconnections.com>

THANKS FOR THE GREAT NEWS. MARK

  _____  

From: owen-bounces@owenconnections.com
[mailto:owen-bounces@owenconnections.com] On Behalf Of Gayleowen@aol.com
Sent: Thursday, February 05, 2004 8:31 AM
To: owen@owenconnections.com
Subject: [owen] Good News


Ruth got to the hospital this morning and Gwynne is sitting up in a chair
and drinking a cup of coffee!!  He is very coherent this morning and the
doctor said there is very little fluid around his heart today.  if all
continues to go well, he will be moved from ICU to a room tomorrow.
 
 
Gayle
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From june at binhost.com  Thu Feb  5 10:44:22 2004
From: june at binhost.com (June Newman)
Date: Thu Mar 24 11:50:10 2005
Subject: [owen] underwear
In-Reply-To: <001201c3ebf9$a957e640$9989fea9@oemcomputer>
References: <001201c3ebf9$a957e640$9989fea9@oemcomputer>
Message-ID: <2B1C1C07-57F2-11D8-9B0A-000A95C48E6C@binhost.com>

I recently posted a poem about underwear.  It got no comment.  Now I'm 
back, still on underwear, but now I am looking for information.  Some 
of you have been known to refer to me as liberal.  And in some matters 
I may be.  But about underwear matters I'm pretty much a conservative 
cotton briefs and sturdy utility bra sort of person.  What I want to 
know has to do with something called a pasty, or specifically, 
recently,  a "sundial medallion."  Does one wear such an item if she 
does not expect it to be exposed?   Also, what holds it on?  Vacuum 
suction?  Chewing gum? Can someone educate me about this important 
matter.  It is important, isn't it?   Else, why would it get so much 
air time?  Curious in Kansas

On Feb 5, 2004, at 9:05 AM, lawrence wrote:


From SAOwen at TarrantCounty.com  Thu Feb  5 11:36:25 2004
From: SAOwen at TarrantCounty.com (SAOwen@TarrantCounty.com)
Date: Thu Mar 24 11:50:10 2005
Subject: [owen] underwear
Message-ID: <E50788FA14C4D511906100065B04E8FC011E0724@itcrex004.tarrantcounty.com>

June, thanks so much for adressing such a meaty issue.  An issue I can
certainly sink my teeth into.  As part of my judicial duties I sometimes
spend time in our courthouse lawyers' lounge, drinking coffee, discussing
important legal issues in an informal setting, and finding out who's doing
who, in a legal sense of course.  Who knew that the issue du jour yesterday
would be JJ's nipple adornment?  According to a knowledgeable young attorney
of the female persuasion, the sundial in question was affixed by a piercing.
I didn't question her expertise or the source of her knowledge, but it
sounded good to me.  At the risk of offending the offendable, you may draw
your own conclusions at the following:  WARNING WARNING WARNING!  THE
FOLLOWING CONTAINS EXPLICIT NIPPLEAGE.  SHIELD YOUR CHILDREN!!

http://www.drudgereport.com/mattjj.htm

From sowen at telepath.com  Thu Feb  5 12:07:31 2004
From: sowen at telepath.com (Susan Owen)
Date: Thu Mar 24 11:50:10 2005
Subject: [owen] underwear
Message-ID: <410-2200424517731781@telepath.com>

I looked and now I'm cold. I have seen some weird piercing adornments on
many parts of the body, but not one that big. It is always amusing to try
and figure out how to take them off, when the person is unconscious. Just
one of the many perks of my job.
Susan


> [Original Message]
> From: <SAOwen@TarrantCounty.com>
> To: <owen@owenconnections.com>
> Date: 2/5/2004 10:38:34 AM
> Subject: RE: [owen] underwear
>
> June, thanks so much for adressing such a meaty issue.  An issue I can
> certainly sink my teeth into.  As part of my judicial duties I sometimes
> spend time in our courthouse lawyers' lounge, drinking coffee, discussing
> important legal issues in an informal setting, and finding out who's doing
> who, in a legal sense of course.  Who knew that the issue du jour
yesterday
> would be JJ's nipple adornment?  According to a knowledgeable young
attorney
> of the female persuasion, the sundial in question was affixed by a
piercing.
> I didn't question her expertise or the source of her knowledge, but it
> sounded good to me.  At the risk of offending the offendable, you may draw
> your own conclusions at the following:  WARNING WARNING WARNING!  THE
> FOLLOWING CONTAINS EXPLICIT NIPPLEAGE.  SHIELD YOUR CHILDREN!!
>
> http://www.drudgereport.com/mattjj.htm
> _______________________________________________
> Owen mailing list
> Owen@owenconnections.com
> https://my.binhost.com/lists/listinfo/owen
> Full archives at: http://archives.binhost.com/~owen



From sowen at telepath.com  Thu Feb  5 12:15:20 2004
From: sowen at telepath.com (Susan Owen)
Date: Thu Mar 24 11:50:10 2005
Subject: [owen] Good News
Message-ID: <410-22004245171520875@telepath.com>

I love good news!!  Thanks Gayle
Susan


----- Original Message ----- 
From: 
To: owen@owenconnections.com
Sent: 2/5/2004 8:31:00 AM 
Subject: [owen] Good News


Ruth got to the hospital this morning and Gwynne is sitting up in a chair and drinking a cup of coffee!!  He is very coherent this morning and the doctor said there is very little fluid around his heart today.  if all continues to go well, he will be moved from ICU to a room tomorrow.


Gayle
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From june at binhost.com  Thu Feb  5 12:23:56 2004
From: june at binhost.com (June Newman)
Date: Thu Mar 24 11:50:10 2005
Subject: [owen] underwear 
In-Reply-To: <E50788FA14C4D511906100065B04E8FC011E0724@itcrex004.tarrantcounty.com>
References: <E50788FA14C4D511906100065B04E8FC011E0724@itcrex004.tarrantcounty.com>
Message-ID: <13E25C82-5800-11D8-9B0A-000A95C48E6C@binhost.com>

Ooooooooh, I had no idea.  Thanks for the link.  I can certainly see 
why she got the attention of our august Attorney General and the FCC, 
and other protectors of our  morals.  An male of my issue says the 
surgeon should have been given credit.

That kind of ornament attachment system would be more permanent than 
gum or glue, I guess.   On the job at the alternative high school  a 
while back, I was told by a student of the male persuasion about a 
penis piercing, called a Prince Albert.  Suppose a nipple piercing has 
a fancy name like that?  I probably shouldn't have asked the young man 
why one would want a Prince Albert.  He said that women liked it and 
then I didn't ask any more questions of him.

It is snowing heavily here, at the rate of about an inch/hour.  
Reporters are calling it a stealth storm.  I think the forecasters got 
burned by the last storm when they forecast 14" and we got 2".  So this 
time they predicted 2".
June







On Feb 5, 2004, at 10:36 AM, SAOwen@TarrantCounty.com wrote:

> June, thanks so much for adressing such a meaty issue.  An issue I can
> certainly sink my teeth into.  As part of my judicial duties I 
> sometimes
> spend time in our courthouse lawyers' lounge, drinking coffee, 
> discussing
> important legal issues in an informal setting, and finding out who's 
> doing
> who, in a legal sense of course.  Who knew that the issue du jour 
> yesterday
> would be JJ's nipple adornment?  According to a knowledgeable young 
> attorney
> of the female persuasion, the sundial in question was affixed by a 
> piercing.
> I didn't question her expertise or the source of her knowledge, but it
> sounded good to me.  At the risk of offending the offendable, you may 
> draw
> your own conclusions at the following:  WARNING WARNING WARNING!  THE
> FOLLOWING CONTAINS EXPLICIT NIPPLEAGE.  SHIELD YOUR CHILDREN!!
>
> http://www.drudgereport.com/mattjj.htm
> _______________________________________________
> Owen mailing list
> Owen@owenconnections.com
> https://my.binhost.com/lists/listinfo/owen
> Full archives at: http://archives.binhost.com/~owen
>
>


From SAOwen at TarrantCounty.com  Thu Feb  5 12:22:31 2004
From: SAOwen at TarrantCounty.com (SAOwen@TarrantCounty.com)
Date: Thu Mar 24 11:50:10 2005
Subject: [owen] underwear
Message-ID: <E50788FA14C4D511906100065B04E8FC011E0725@itcrex004.tarrantcounty.com>

>From Maureen Dowd in today's NY Times:

Who could have guessed that Saddam's W.M.D. would be less scary than Ms.
Jackson's pierced metal sunburst, a Weapon of Mammary Destruction aimed at
the CBS chairman, Les Moonves? Or, as Jon Stewart points out, that a
government so reluctant to investigate intelligence lapses is so eager to
investigate a breast lapse?

From gmb42 at yahoo.com  Thu Feb  5 13:05:49 2004
From: gmb42 at yahoo.com (Nathaniel Owen)
Date: Thu Mar 24 11:50:10 2005
Subject: [owen] John Kerry
Message-ID: <20040205180549.98633.qmail@web40709.mail.yahoo.com>

Hey Folks,
 
I just found a very interesting article on John Kerry since it is looking more and more like he's going to be the Democratic nominee for president....
 
http://www.nypost.com/postopinion/opedcolumnists/17337.htm
 
Nate


---------------------------------
Do you Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Finance: Get your refund fast by filing online
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From SAOwen at TarrantCounty.com  Thu Feb  5 14:50:42 2004
From: SAOwen at TarrantCounty.com (SAOwen@TarrantCounty.com)
Date: Thu Mar 24 11:50:10 2005
Subject: [owen] Revelations and John Ashcroft
Message-ID: <E50788FA14C4D511906100065B04E8FC011E0726@itcrex004.tarrantcounty.com>

Talk about your breathless anticipation.  Next week, Dr. Hunter S. Thompson
is going to "discuss the book of Revelation and what it means to John
Ashcroft."
I am positively giddy with excitement!  For all of you who share my warped
joy, you can access the good Doctor's column through
http://www.drudgereport.com/ <http://www.drudgereport.com/> .
 
Nicole, I have an assignment for you.  Please find a good anger management
control therapist in Lubbock for your favorite basketball coach!
 
Cheers,
Steve
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From june at binhost.com  Thu Feb  5 15:03:11 2004
From: june at binhost.com (June Newman)
Date: Thu Mar 24 11:50:10 2005
Subject: [owen] John Kerry
In-Reply-To: <20040205180549.98633.qmail@web40709.mail.yahoo.com>
References: <20040205180549.98633.qmail@web40709.mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <5364C26E-5816-11D8-9B0A-000A95C48E6C@binhost.com>

Hello Nate,

If this op ed piece were about President Bush instead of Senator Kerry 
I would have exactly the same things to say about it.  My comments are 
not partisan.

Note these things:
1. Many of the sources of information are nameless callers to a radio 
talk show which has a political bias.  Carr uses anonymous anecdotes as 
if they were supportable facts.

2. The mention of Martha Stewart is irrelevant, added to make an 
unsupported link between Kerry and a person on trial, accused of 
serious misdeeds.  This is one example of the sleazy tactic of 
illogical association.  Unless there is documented evidence of a 
relationship between Kerry and Stewart, this is out of place.  That 
Kerry is a descendant of Emerson may have been intended as a negative 
association, although I think that is positive.  (still illogical, 
nevertheless)

3. Slanted, loaded words like tony and Brahmin and images such as 
imported motorcycles and a Beacon Hill mansion are used to imply 
something negative without stating it openly.  Carr is appealing to an 
emotional prejudice against wealthy people without saying,    "wealthy 
people are bad."  .

I have not decided whether to support Kerry as the Democratic nominee 
for President.  There may be some important reasons not to.  I don't 
like that he voted in favor of the Iraq war resolution, for instance.  
I hope to decide based on information that is supported by facts,  
expressed objectively,  that does not make stealth appeal to prejudice.

It is sad that it takes such an astronomical amount of money to run for 
high public office.  That is an issue worth discussing with logical, 
unloaded language.

Thanks for contributing to the list.  It's good to hear from you.  June


THE REAL KERRY
  By HOWIE CARR

February 5, 2004 -- BOSTON


ONE of the surest ways to get the phones ringing on any Massachusetts 
talk-radio show is to ask people to call in and tell their John Kerry 
stories. The phone lines are soon filled, and most of the stories have 
a common theme: our junior senator pulling rank on one of his 
constituents, breaking in line, demanding to pay less (or nothing) or 
ducking out before the bill arrives.

The tales often have one other common thread. Most end with Sen. Kerry 
inquiring of the lesser mortal: "Do you know who I am?"

And now he's running for president as a populist. His first wife came 
from a Philadelphia Main Line family worth $300 million. His second 
wife is a pickle-and-ketchup heiress.

Kerry lives in a mansion on Beacon Hill on which he has borrowed $6 
million to finance his campaign. A fire hydrant that prevented him and 
his wife from parking their SUV in front of their tony digs was removed 
by the city of Boston at his behest.

The Kerrys ski at a spa the widow Heinz owns in Aspen, and they summer 
on Nantucket in a sprawling seaside "cottage" on Hurlbert Avenue, which 
is so well-appointed that at a recent fund-raiser, they imported 
porta-toilets onto the front lawn so the donors wouldn't use the inside 
bathrooms. (They later claimed the decision was made on septic, not 
social, considerations).

It's a wonderful life these days for John Kerry. He sails Nantucket 
Sound in "the Scaramouche," a 42-foot Hinckley powerboat. Martha 
Stewart has a similar boat; the no-frills model reportedly starts at 
$695,000. Sen. Kerry bought it new, for cash.


Every Tuesday night, the local politicians here that Kerry elbowed out 
of his way on his march to the top watch, fascinated, as he claims 
victory in more primaries and denounces the special interests, the 
"millionaires" and "the overprivileged."

"His initials are JFK," longtime state Senate President William M. 
Bulger used to muse on St. Patrick's Day, "Just for Kerry. He's only 
Irish every sixth year." And now it turns out that he's not Irish at 
all.

But in the parochial world of Bay State politics, he was never really 
seen as Irish, even when he was claiming to be (although now, of 
course, he says that any references to his alleged Hibernian heritage 
were mistakenly put into the Congressional Record by an aide who 
apparently didn't know that on his paternal side he is, in fact, 
part-Jewish).

Kerry is, in fact, a Brahmin - his mother was a Forbes, from one of 
Massachusetts' oldest WASP families. The ancestor who wed Ralph Waldo 
Emerson's daughter was marrying down.

At the risk of engaging in ethnic stereotyping, Yankees have a 
reputation for, shall we say, frugality. And Kerry tosses around 
quarters like they were manhole covers. In 1993, for instance, living 
on a senator's salary of about $100,000, he managed to give a total of 
$135 to charity.

Yet that same year, he was somehow able to scrape together $8,600 for a 
brand-new, imported Italian motorcycle, a Ducati Paso 907 IE. He kept 
it for years, until he decided to run for president, at which time he 
traded it in for a Harley-Davidson like the one he rode onto "The 
Tonight Show" set a couple of months ago as Jay Leno applauded his 
fellow Bay Stater.

Of course, in 1993 he was between his first and second heiresses - a 
time he now calls "the wandering years," although an equally apt 
description might be "the freeloading years."

For some of the time, he was, for all practical purposes, homeless. His 
friends allowed him into a real-estate deal in which he flipped a condo 
for quick resale, netting a $21,000 profit on a cash investment of 
exactly nothing. For months he rode around in a new car supplied by a 
shady local Buick dealer. When the dealer's ties to a congressman who 
was later indicted for racketeering were exposed, Kerry quickly 
explained that the non-payment was a mere oversight, and wrote out a 
check.

In the Senate, his record of his constituent services has been 
lackluster, and most of his colleagues, despite their public support, 
are hard-pressed to list an accomplishment. Just last fall, a Boston TV 
reporter ambushed three congressmen with the question, name something 
John Kerry has accomplished in Congress. After a few nervous giggles, 
two could think of nothing, and a third mentioned a baseball field, and 
then misidentified Kerry as "Sen. Kennedy."

Many of his constituents see him in person only when he is cutting them 
in line - at an airport, a clam shack or the Registry of Motor 
Vehicles. One talk-show caller a few weeks back recalled standing 
behind a police barricade in 2002 as the Rolling Stones played the 
Orpheum Theater, a short limousine ride from Kerry's Louisburg Square 
mansion.

The caller, Jay, said he began heckling Kerry and his wife as they 
attempted to enter the theater. Finally, he said, the senator turned to 
him and asked him the eternal question.

"Do you know who I am?"

"Yeah," said Jay. "You're a gold-digger."

John Kerry. First he looks at the purse.

Howie Carr, a Boston Herald columnist and syndicated talk-radio host, 
has been covering John Kerry for 25 years.


Home
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  NEW YORK POST is a registered trademark of NYP Holdings, Inc. 
NYPOST.COM, NYPOSTONLINE.COM, and NEWYORKPOST.COM
are trademarks of NYP Holdings, Inc.
Copyright 2003 NYP Holdings, Inc. All rights reserved.
On Feb 5, 2004, at 12:05 PM, Nathaniel Owen wrote:

> Hey Folks,
> ?
> I just found a very interesting article on John Kerry since it is 
> looking more and more like he's going to be the Democratic nominee for 
> president....
> ?
> http://www.nypost.com/postopinion/opedcolumnists/17337.htm
> ?
> Nate
>
> Do you Yahoo!?
> Yahoo! Finance: Get your refund fast by filing 
> online_______________________________________________
> Owen mailing list
> Owen@owenconnections.com
> https://my.binhost.com/lists/listinfo/owen
> Full archives at: http://archives.binhost.com/~owen
From sowen at telepath.com  Thu Feb  5 16:12:31 2004
From: sowen at telepath.com (Susan Owen)
Date: Thu Mar 24 11:50:10 2005
Subject: [owen] Revelations and John Ashcroft
Message-ID: <410-22004245211231296@telepath.com>

Did not know Marsha Sharp had an anger management problem.
Susan


----- Original Message ----- 
From: 
To: owen@owenconnections.com
Sent: 2/5/2004 1:52:52 PM 
Subject: [owen] Revelations and John Ashcroft


Talk about your breathless anticipation.  Next week, Dr. Hunter S. Thompson is going to "discuss the book of Revelation and what it means to John Ashcroft."
I am positively giddy with excitement!  For all of you who share my warped joy, you can access the good Doctor's column through http://www.drudgereport.com/.

Nicole, I have an assignment for you.  Please find a good anger management control therapist in Lubbock for your favorite basketball coach!

Cheers,
Steve
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From sharrison at cleanweb.net  Thu Feb  5 16:21:39 2004
From: sharrison at cleanweb.net (Harrison)
Date: Thu Mar 24 11:50:10 2005
Subject: [owen] Good News
In-Reply-To: <51.3a589c2a.2d53ad93@aol.com>
Message-ID: <KFEBKEGJOPJNDJFGGDLAGEEECBAA.sharrison@cleanweb.net>

YEAH!!  Keep the good news coming & thank you so much for the frequent
updates!  Don't ya know ~ a cup of coffee always makes one feel better in
the mornings!!!  love to all, brenda
  -----Original Message-----
  From: owen-bounces@owenconnections.com
[mailto:owen-bounces@owenconnections.com]On Behalf Of Gayleowen@aol.com
  Sent: Thursday, February 05, 2004 8:31 AM
  To: owen@owenconnections.com
  Subject: [owen] Good News


  Ruth got to the hospital this morning and Gwynne is sitting up in a chair
and drinking a cup of coffee!!  He is very coherent this morning and the
doctor said there is very little fluid around his heart today.  if all
continues to go well, he will be moved from ICU to a room tomorrow.


  Gayle
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From sharrison at cleanweb.net  Thu Feb  5 16:41:52 2004
From: sharrison at cleanweb.net (Harrison)
Date: Thu Mar 24 11:50:10 2005
Subject: [owen] Revelations and John Ashcroft
In-Reply-To: <410-22004245211231296@telepath.com>
Message-ID: <KFEBKEGJOPJNDJFGGDLAIEEFCBAA.sharrison@cleanweb.net>

Good one Susan!!!  brenda
  -----Original Message-----
  From: owen-bounces@owenconnections.com
[mailto:owen-bounces@owenconnections.com]On Behalf Of Susan Owen
  Sent: Thursday, February 05, 2004 3:13 PM
  To: owen@owenconnections.com
  Subject: RE: [owen] Revelations and John Ashcroft


  Did not know Marsha Sharp had an anger management problem.
  Susan


    ----- Original Message -----
    From:
    To: owen@owenconnections.com
    Sent: 2/5/2004 1:52:52 PM
    Subject: [owen] Revelations and John Ashcroft


    Talk about your breathless anticipation.  Next week, Dr. Hunter S.
Thompson is going to "discuss the book of Revelation and what it means to
John Ashcroft."
    I am positively giddy with excitement!  For all of you who share my
warped joy, you can access the good Doctor's column through
http://www.drudgereport.com/.

    Nicole, I have an assignment for you.  Please find a good anger
management control therapist in Lubbock for your favorite basketball coach!

    Cheers,
    Steve
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From klowen at hsnp.com  Fri Feb  6 08:58:57 2004
From: klowen at hsnp.com (lawrence)
Date: Thu Mar 24 11:50:10 2005
Subject: [owen] sleaze
Message-ID: <001201c3ecb9$5e483040$9989fea9@oemcomputer>

Nate --
Thanks for sharing the sleaze on John Kerry.  Gives us a sample
of what's to come from the Republican sleaze machine.   It reminded
me of an article devoted wholly to naming a bunch of women 
Clinton supposedly spent quality time with.  

Cheers --
Lawrence
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From jowen at greenhills.net  Fri Feb  6 07:57:41 2004
From: jowen at greenhills.net (Jack)
Date: Thu Mar 24 11:50:10 2005
Subject: [owen] priorities
Message-ID: <200402061246.i16Ckj0D006484@ghlin4.greenhills.net>

Good morning all.
       I am changing the subjects this morning, but i think it is one of 
our real pressing needs. I read an article this morning in the 
Christian Science Monitor,"Turning wasted heat into a power 
source" by Peter N. Spotts. If we would spend some of our wasted 
money on more research like this, we would not have to try to steel 
all the energy in the world to satisfy our wasteful ways. It is worth 
reading, and i didnt see anything evil in it, not even any sleaze. 
  Love you all Jack


From klowen at hsnp.com  Fri Feb  6 11:44:43 2004
From: klowen at hsnp.com (lawrence)
Date: Thu Mar 24 11:50:11 2005
Subject: [owen] samstory
Message-ID: <000f01c3ecd0$86355260$9989fea9@oemcomputer>


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From Gayleowen at aol.com  Fri Feb  6 10:25:07 2004
From: Gayleowen at aol.com (Gayleowen@aol.com)
Date: Thu Mar 24 11:50:11 2005
Subject: [owen] Gwynne
Message-ID: <75.22189671.2d550bd3@aol.com>

Gwynne has been moved from intensive care to intermediate care with hopes of 
moving to a private room by tonight or tomorrow.  The number of the intensive 
care room is #394.  As soon as we get a room number for his private room we 
will let you know.  Ruth said he was really doing good this morning. 

Ruth's brother is taking her home to spend the night tonight (her first time 
back at home) and then bringing her back to the hospital in the morning.  I 
think that says quite a lot that Ruth is willing to leave the hospital for that 
period of time.  

All day today you can reach Ruth on Winford's phone number which is 
405-308-8435.        

Gayle
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From klowen at hsnp.com  Fri Feb  6 12:49:10 2004
From: klowen at hsnp.com (lawrence)
Date: Thu Mar 24 11:50:11 2005
Subject: [owen] sam again
Message-ID: <000d01c3ecd9$872c6d80$9989fea9@oemcomputer>

I wrote out an amusing story that Sam, a 75 yr old gent, told.  
It's on Word Perfect.  I don't know how to send it to owenconnections.
Lawrence
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From swood at greenhills.net  Fri Feb  6 11:19:14 2004
From: swood at greenhills.net (S. Wood)
Date: Thu Mar 24 11:50:11 2005
Subject: [owen] sam again
References: <000d01c3ecd9$872c6d80$9989fea9@oemcomputer>
Message-ID: <007501c3eccc$f71a3800$6501a8c0@comp2>

Uncle Lawrence,

Try creating a new e-mail and minimizing it.  Then open your Word Perfect and  highlight the Word Perfect text of your document.  Right click and copy the information and paste it on the e-mail document you want to send by right clicking again.  The text may not look exactly like it did on your Word Perfect document and you may have to work with it a little bit.

Staci

P.S.  We had about 9 inches of snow yesterday and are snowed in.  
  ----- Original Message ----- 
  From: lawrence 
  To: owen@owenconnections.com 
  Sent: Friday, February 06, 2004 11:49 AM
  Subject: [owen] sam again


  I wrote out an amusing story that Sam, a 75 yr old gent, told.  
  It's on Word Perfect.  I don't know how to send it to owenconnections.
  Lawrence


------------------------------------------------------------------------------


  _______________________________________________
  Owen mailing list
  Owen@owenconnections.com
  https://my.binhost.com/lists/listinfo/owen
  Full archives at: http://archives.binhost.com/~owen
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From Dowen at wcvt.com  Fri Feb  6 13:24:20 2004
From: Dowen at wcvt.com (Owen, Dan)
Date: Thu Mar 24 11:50:11 2005
Subject: [owen] Good versus Evil
Message-ID: <3367C8BA324FD311AD06009027514849015F3D8A@tnet.wcvt.com>

All,
 
There has been a lot of discussion concerning evil on the connection lately.
I would like to discuss the flip side of evil.  I have asserted that
everyone has the capacity for evil but conversely I feel everyone has as
much or even a greater capacity for good.     Circumstances or environmental
concerns can enter into whether we conduct evil acts.  A rich country like
ours can afford to conduct good acts more easily than a poor country.  Good
begets good and evil begets evil.  Also how we are raised has a huge impact
on good and evil. You may ask where I am going with this?
 
Well, the other morning at our Rotary club meeting a local ski instructor by
the name of John Eagan shared an experience with us.  He is a famous extreme
skier and has been featured in several Warren Miller video productions.
Last year he was asked to go with a large number of skiers form around the
world to ski the largest peak in Russia called Mount Elbrus.   As they were
skiing a severe winter storm hit.  They were caught in a blizzard with 40
below zero temperatures.  Turns out a number of the skiers died.  John was
helping two skiers down the hill when they came along a rescue shelter.
They tried to enter and were denied access by several Russian skiers.  When
asked why they could not enter they were told there was not enough food and
water to go around. John said he had little choice but to move on down the
mountain because the Russians were much bigger than he was.  After the storm
several skiers were found dead within 100 feet of the rescue shelter
entrance.  John continued down the hill with the two people he was helping.
One of these folks happened to be a Russian Lawyer.
 
John's cousin was also helping with the group on another section of the
mountain.  He managed to create a snow cave where he sheltered sixteen
skiers from around the world.  Unfortunately not all of the sixteen lived
through the experience but the ones who did could not believe how generous
John's cousin was.  They could not understand why the American would be
willing to help them and share his small amount of food and water with
complete strangers.
 
The lawyer that John helped down the mountain was so thankful he bought John
a large supply of caviar and champagne as a gift of appreciation.  The
lawyer flew from Russia to Paris with John.  Once they arrived in Paris the
Russian lawyer demanded that the caviar and champagne he had given John for
saving his life be returned to him.  The Russian lawyer then then thanked
John for helping him avoid duty on the goods.
 
I'll let you draw your own conclusions about good and evil from this story.

 
Love you all Dan O.....
 
 
 
            
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From klowen at hsnp.com  Fri Feb  6 15:41:16 2004
From: klowen at hsnp.com (lawrence)
Date: Thu Mar 24 11:50:11 2005
Subject: [owen] sam, oh sam
Message-ID: <002701c3ecf1$91e0ad00$9989fea9@oemcomputer>

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From june at binhost.com  Fri Feb  6 15:26:18 2004
From: june at binhost.com (June Newman)
Date: Thu Mar 24 11:50:11 2005
Subject: [owen] inscrutable Sam
Message-ID: <B857E10E-58E2-11D8-9B0A-000A95C48E6C@binhost.com>

If anyone opened Lawrence's attachment, would you mind sending to me as 
a rtf, or just as inline text.  I and my Mac don't recognize .lnk 
files. 
  


From klowen at hsnp.com  Fri Feb  6 18:16:44 2004
From: klowen at hsnp.com (lawrence)
Date: Thu Mar 24 11:50:11 2005
Subject: [owen] Sam typed out as straight e-mail
Message-ID: <004c01c3ed07$8cd79b00$9989fea9@oemcomputer>

    (This is Sam's story.  Sam lives in a big apartment building that houses some two hundred
folks in their declining years.  Sam bought a 1937 Chevrolet for $150 in 1941.  When he went off
to World War II he still owed $50 on the car.  His mother cared for the car, paid the $50, and
Sam drove it on his discharge from the Navy.  I wish I could write this so you could hear the
flat, clear tones of Sam's Alabama voice.  Their assignment was to tell about a room in their life.)

                            She's Leaking in the Eye
    Someone in the company heard me brag that I could establish an insurance business
anywhere they sent me.  The boss called me in and told me he had heard what I said.  Then he
asked me if I would go to Morristown, Tennessee and open a branch office.  I couldn't turn him
down after what I had bragged so I went to Morristown.  That was in 1952.
    I couldn't sell the policy in Morristown that I had been selling in Selma, Alabama because
of state laws.  In Selma we called it life insurance, but it was really a burial policy.  The insurance
company owned most of the funeral homes in Alabama and it got rich by us selling life policies.
When someone covered died, the family got a casket, a full funeral, embalming, everything, plus
a little cash.  I phoned my boss and told him I couldn't sell that policy in Tennessee.
    He said, "Go talk to the owner of the funeral home.  See if he will sign a contract
with us to provide what we provide down here."
    I went to the funeral home and talked to the man who owned it.  He said he would be glad to 
sign a contract with the company.  I said, "I'm going to be living in Morristown and I need
a place to stay."
    He said, "You can stay here." He led me upstairs to the second floor and showed me a
big, clean room.  There was a nice bed on one side of the room and another bed on the other side.
A big, fine bathroom too.  "You can sleep here," he said.
    Turns out that Joe and John worked there too and one of them was on night duty a week at a time.
I slept in Joe's bed while John was on duty and in John's bed while Joe was on.  Thye didn't like 
it much me sleeping in their beds, but I figured it was worth it.  I got the room free if I agreed
to go on night calls with Joe and John, whichever one was on.  The company was furnishing me
$10 a day for room and it was easy for me to figure I could almost be getting rich by saving
up that $10 every day.
      The night calls weren't any good though.  Go to the hospital at two in the morning.
Bring the corpse back and get it up to the third floor where they worked on corpses.
It was real hard to get back to sleep after doing one of those night calls, but I could stand
it because of the $10.
    I sold a policy to a woman that covered five in her family.  Just a few days later she
left her children in the car while she went into a store to shop.  When she came out, three
of her children were dead.  The undertakers got those three little girls all fixed up and in
nice caskets.  I wanted people in town to know that my company paid real quick so I took
some papers over to the house for the woman to sign.  There those three little caskets were
in the front room.  It was the first time I had looked at the little girls.  When I looked into one
casket, there was some stuff leaking out of that little girl's right eye.  I phoned the funeral home and
one of them came right over.  He said it was all right, wasn't anything but a little embalming fluid.
    That was when I decided that it wasn't worth $10 a day to live in a room in a funeral home.
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From owengj at ultravision.net  Fri Feb  6 21:16:31 2004
From: owengj at ultravision.net (G P Owen)
Date: Thu Mar 24 11:50:11 2005
Subject: [owen] inscrutable Sam
References: <B857E10E-58E2-11D8-9B0A-000A95C48E6C@binhost.com>
Message-ID: <005701c3ed20$80c3d540$6c6e87d8@DH61ZN21>

I could not get it because Outlook Express deleted the  message attachment
as unsafe.
Lawrence can you cut the message and then copy it into your e-mail?    G P
----- Original Message ----- 
From: "June Newman" <june@binhost.com>
To: <owen@owenconnections.com>
Sent: Friday, February 06, 2004 2:26 PM
Subject: [owen] inscrutable Sam


> If anyone opened Lawrence's attachment, would you mind sending to me as
> a rtf, or just as inline text.  I and my Mac don't recognize .lnk
> files.
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Owen mailing list
> Owen@owenconnections.com
> https://my.binhost.com/lists/listinfo/owen
> Full archives at: http://archives.binhost.com/~owen


From june at binhost.com  Fri Feb  6 21:19:03 2004
From: june at binhost.com (June Newman)
Date: Thu Mar 24 11:50:11 2005
Subject: [owen] Sam typed out as straight e-mail
In-Reply-To: <004c01c3ed07$8cd79b00$9989fea9@oemcomputer>
References: <004c01c3ed07$8cd79b00$9989fea9@oemcomputer>
Message-ID: <FF7F05AB-5913-11D8-9B0A-000A95C48E6C@binhost.com>

Thanks for Sam's story.  It was worth waiting for.
On Feb 6, 2004, at 5:16 PM, lawrence wrote:

> ??? (This is Sam's story.? Sam lives in a big apartment building that 
> houses some two hundred
> folks in their declining years.? Sam bought a 1937 Chevrolet for $150 
> in 1941.? When he went off
> to World War II he still owed $50 on the car.? His mother cared for 
> the car, paid the $50, and
> Sam drove it on his discharge from the Navy.? I wish I could write 
> this so you could hear the
> flat, clear tones of Sam's Alabama voice.? Their assignment was to 
> tell about a room in their life.)
> ?
> ??? ??? ??? ??? ??? ??? ??? She's Leaking in the Eye
> ??? Someone in the company heard me brag that I could establish an 
> insurance business
> anywhere they sent me.? The boss called me in and told me he had heard 
> what I said.? Then he
> asked me if I would go to Morristown, Tennessee and open a branch 
> office.? I couldn't turn him
> down after what I had bragged so I went to Morristown.? That was in 
> 1952.
> ??? I couldn't sell the policy in Morristown that I had been selling 
> in Selma, Alabama because
> of state laws.? In Selma we called it life insurance, but it was 
> really a burial policy.? The insurance
> company owned most of the funeral homes in Alabama and it got rich by 
> us selling life policies.
> When someone covered died, the family got a casket, a full funeral, 
> embalming, everything, plus
> a little cash.? I phoned my boss and told him I couldn't sell that 
> policy in Tennessee.
> ??? He said, "Go talk to the owner of the funeral home.? See if he 
> will sign a contract
> with us to provide what we provide down here."
> ??? I went to the funeral home and talked to the man who owned it.? He 
> said he would be glad to
> sign a contract with the company.? I said, "I'm going to be living in 
> Morristown and I need
> a place to stay."
> ??? He said, "You can stay here." He led me upstairs to the second 
> floor and showed me a
> big, clean room.? There was a nice bed on one side of the room and 
> another bed on the other side.
> A big, fine bathroom too.? "You can sleep here," he said.
> ??? Turns out that Joe and John worked there too and one of them was 
> on night duty a week at a time.
> I slept in Joe's bed while John was on duty and?in John's bed while 
> Joe was on.? Thye didn't like?
> it much me sleeping in their beds, but I figured it was worth it.? I 
> got the room free if I agreed
> to go on night calls with Joe and John, whichever one was on.? The 
> company was furnishing me
> $10 a day for room and it was easy for me to figure I could almost be 
> getting rich by saving
> up that $10?every day.
> ??? ??The night calls weren't any good though.? Go to the hospital at 
> two in the morning.
> Bring the corpse back and get it up to the third floor where they 
> worked on corpses.
> It was real hard to get back to sleep after doing one of those night 
> calls, but I could stand
> it because of the $10.
> ??? I sold a policy to a woman that covered five in her family.? Just 
> a few days later she
> left her children in the car while she went into a store to shop.? 
> When she came out, three
> of her children were dead.? The undertakers got those three little 
> girls all fixed up and in
> nice caskets.? I wanted people in town to know that my company paid 
> real quick so I took
> some papers over to the house for the woman to sign.? There those 
> three little caskets were
> in the front room.? It was the first time I had looked at the little 
> girls.? When I looked into one
> casket, there was some stuff leaking out of that little girl's right 
> eye.? I phoned the funeral home and
> one of them came right over.? He said it was all right, wasn't 
> anything but a little embalming fluid.
> ??? That was when I decided that it wasn't worth $10 a day to live in 
> a room in a funeral home.
> _______________________________________________
> Owen mailing list
> Owen@owenconnections.com
> https://my.binhost.com/lists/listinfo/owen
> Full archives at: http://archives.binhost.com/~owen


From klowen at hsnp.com  Sat Feb  7 09:44:43 2004
From: klowen at hsnp.com (lawrence)
Date: Thu Mar 24 11:50:11 2005
Subject: [owen] helping Sam
Message-ID: <007f01c3ed88$ed458fc0$9989fea9@oemcomputer>

Staci, Susan, June, Athena, G.P. --
Thank you for your interest in Sam's story and your
kind suggestions about how I might get the story from
Word Perfect to e-mail.  We changed our server about three
months ago and something may have happened in the changeover
to mess the system up.  Probably, though, it's just my 
inability to use the tool under my fingers.
 Love --
Lawrence
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From rowen1 at triad.rr.com  Sat Feb  7 09:09:30 2004
From: rowen1 at triad.rr.com (Roger Owen)
Date: Thu Mar 24 11:50:11 2005
Subject: [owen] Gwynne
Message-ID: <000801c3ed84$01323740$6501a8c0@gayleowen>

Mother went home last nite ans slept very well in her own bed.  She talked to daddy before she went to sleep and he was still doing good.  Winford will take her back to the hospital this morniong and hopefully daddy will be moved to a room today.

To be continued.........

Roger
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From klowen at hsnp.com  Sat Feb  7 13:27:27 2004
From: klowen at hsnp.com (lawrence)
Date: Thu Mar 24 11:50:11 2005
Subject: [owen] music
Message-ID: <00b101c3eda8$0afc4760$9989fea9@oemcomputer>

Susan --
Some instruments, when young, sing frequent solos, 
then in the ripeness of years,  sing best in duets. 
Let's hear it for the music.
Lawrence 
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From sowen at telepath.com  Sat Feb  7 15:53:08 2004
From: sowen at telepath.com (Susan Owen)
Date: Thu Mar 24 11:50:11 2005
Subject: [owen] music
Message-ID: <410-2200426720538218@telepath.com>

keep singing, but do not send me the CD. 
Susan


----- Original Message ----- 
From: lawrence 
To: owen@owenconnections.com
Sent: 2/7/2004 10:36:20 AM 
Subject: [owen] music


Susan --
Some instruments, when young, sing frequent solos, 
then in the ripeness of years,  sing best in duets. 
Let's hear it for the music.
Lawrence 
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From the_ahs at hometownsolutions.net  Sat Feb  7 16:20:06 2004
From: the_ahs at hometownsolutions.net (Arne Kildegaard)
Date: Thu Mar 24 11:50:11 2005
Subject: [owen] helping Sam
In-Reply-To: <007f01c3ed88$ed458fc0$9989fea9@oemcomputer>
References: <007f01c3ed88$ed458fc0$9989fea9@oemcomputer>
Message-ID: <40255686.2010307@hometownsolutions.net>

Never mind,
It was wonderful to read Sam's story.
Thanks for taking the time to type it in so we could all enjoy!
xo Athena

lawrence wrote:

> Staci, Susan, June, Athena, G.P. --
> Thank you for your interest in Sam's story and your
> kind suggestions about how I might get the story from
> Word Perfect to e-mail.  We changed our server about three
> months ago and something may have happened in the changeover
> to mess the system up.  Probably, though, it's just my
> inability to use the tool under my fingers.
>  Love --
> Lawrence
>
>------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
>_______________________________________________
>Owen mailing list
>Owen@owenconnections.com
>https://my.binhost.com/lists/listinfo/owen
>Full archives at: http://archives.binhost.com/~owen
>  
>


From rowen1 at triad.rr.com  Sat Feb  7 18:17:33 2004
From: rowen1 at triad.rr.com (Roger Owen)
Date: Thu Mar 24 11:50:11 2005
Subject: [owen] Gwynne
Message-ID: <002901c3edd0$90f39990$6501a8c0@gayleowen>

Daddy has been moved into a private room.  The number is 5516.  If you want to call him direct, call 903-590-8516.  Mother says that the room is very nice and has a sofa that makes into a bed for her.  She is very happy. Daddy walked twice as far today as he did yesterday.  Things are moving along nicely.  Thanks again for all of your prayers.

Roger
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From jowen at greenhills.net  Sun Feb  8 12:19:49 2004
From: jowen at greenhills.net (Jack)
Date: Thu Mar 24 11:50:11 2005
Subject: [owen] Boycott
Message-ID: <200402081708.i18H8q0D015524@ghlin4.greenhills.net>

         Read the article in the Washington Post this morning on 
Walmart pressuring the chinese factories working for them to cut 
prices, and i think you will join me in thinking we should all boycott 
that Giant, small business "Gobler Upper".
    Love you all Jack


From klowen at hsnp.com  Mon Feb  9 09:30:13 2004
From: klowen at hsnp.com (lawrence)
Date: Thu Mar 24 11:50:11 2005
Subject: [owen] idle speculation
Message-ID: <000a01c3ef19$3b75c2a0$9989fea9@oemcomputer>

Thank you, Dan,  for the story about the kind Americans and the mean 
Russians.  Should we conclude that Americans are morally superior to 
Russians?    Or that in some specific circumstances a couple of Americans
behaved a good deal better than some Russians.  

If Bush had  been president of  Outer Beaconland in the 1980s, and 
watched the United States supply aid, chemical equipment, military
equipment and moral support to Saddam Hussein, would he have 
called the United States part of the axis of evil?

Cheers -
Lawrence
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From Dowen at wcvt.com  Mon Feb  9 08:39:49 2004
From: Dowen at wcvt.com (Owen, Dan)
Date: Thu Mar 24 11:50:11 2005
Subject: [owen] idle speculation
Message-ID: <3367C8BA324FD311AD06009027514849015F3D8C@tnet.wcvt.com>

Lawrence,
 
I think folks will draw their own conclusions from the incident on Mt.
Elbra.  I do not think Russians are born morally inferior to Americans but I
do believe that being raised in that country has spawn people that are
generally less charitable than others.  I'm not sure if it is their
communist heritage, chronic shortages, cold winters or those big furry hats
they wear.  Seems to be a lot of hatred over their and little tolerance for
differences.  Last time I checked we still have forces in Kosovo.  I realize
we have our fair share of hatred and intolerance in our country but no where
to the degree in Eastern Europe.  Could be I am xenophobic and an overly
enthusiastic cheerleader for the red white and blue. 
 
I find it curious you found a way to pull President Bush into this
discussion.  Seems to me we did provide support to Hussein in the early
80's.  The common enemy then was Iran. (remember the hostage crisis)
Hussein had a choice then to lead Iraq to greatness or turn on his own
people and enrich himself at their expense.  It is very easy to be a Monday
morning quarterback.  President Reagan is celebrating his 92nd birthday, was
his decision to help Iraq in the early 80's evil?  I doubt very seriously we
would have helped Hussein then if we had known what we know now.  Also I
doubt President Bush would have invaded Iraq if we had known Hussein did not
have WMD's.  There seems to be evidence indicating that Hussein thought he
had WMD's.  We will probably never know for sure but the environment he
created produced a society of mistrust, dishonesty and evil.  I believe you
reap what you sew and the Hussein heritage will leave a stain on that
society for generations to come.  Kind of like Russia.     
 
Questionable associations with potentially evil nations is nothing new.  The
same thing is going on right now with our Pakistan alliance.  It may prove
to be a brilliant strategy or a huge mistake.  I think you would agree no
person or nation is all good or all evil.  You "makes" a decision and you
"takes" your chances.  No doubt there will be plenty to criticize in the
years to come.  I bet if you ask the Indian government what they think about
our alliance with Pakistan the axis of evil thing would come up.  At least
they admitted to selling nuclear technology.  Would that have happened
before we declared our war on terrorism?  At least we know now who they
helped into the nuclear club.  Is it better to know who to fear or is it
better to be blissfully ignorant?  As always there are more questions than
answers.  
 
It is going to be in the mid-30's today.  First time we will have been above
freezing in four weeks.  That is something Howard Dean can really scream
about.
 
Love you all Dan O..............  
 
  
 
       
 
  

-----Original Message-----
From: owen-bounces@owenconnections.com
[mailto:owen-bounces@owenconnections.com]On Behalf Of lawrence
Sent: Monday, February 09, 2004 9:30 AM
To: owen@owenconnections.com
Subject: [owen] idle speculation


Thank you, Dan, for the story about the kind Americans and the mean 
Russians.  Should we conclude that Americans are morally superior to 
Russians?    Or that in some specific circumstances a couple of Americans
behaved a good deal better than some Russians.  
 
If Bush had been president of  Outer Beaconland in the 1980s, and 
watched the United States supply aid, chemical equipment, military
equipment and moral support to Saddam Hussein, would he have 
called the United States part of the axis of evil?
 
Cheers -
Lawrence

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From newman at binhost.com  Mon Feb  9 09:40:22 2004
From: newman at binhost.com (Owen and Zuzana Newman)
Date: Thu Mar 24 11:50:11 2005
Subject: [owen] idle speculation
In-Reply-To: <3367C8BA324FD311AD06009027514849015F3D8C@tnet.wcvt.com>
Message-ID: <000f01c3ef1a$a5fcc460$0200a8c0@neighbor>

Dan,
 
I am interested in understanding the basis for your conclusion that
Russians are less charitable than others or that Eastern Europeans
harbor "a lot of hatred . and little tolerance for differences".  Are
your conclusions based solely on the incident you described on Mt.
Elbra, or do you believe that your characterizations apply to the
society in general?  Your comments that it may be the result of
"communist heritage, chronic shortages, cold winters or those big furry
hats they wear", while at least partially in jest, would indicate that
you believe the characterization applies to the society in general.  If
you base your characterizations upon other evidence, I'd be interested
to hear it.  
 
I find it difficult to characterize a country and its people on the
unfortunate actions of a few individuals and upon an isolated incident
such as that on Mt. Elbra.  You acknowledge that "we have our fair share
of hatred and intolerance in our country", but contrast that as "no
where to the degree in Eastern Europe".  This appears to be inconsistent
with a conclusion regarding the nature of Eastern Europeans based upon a
single incident.  If the Mt. Elbra story reflects on Eastern European
society in general, what does the following story, reported several
years ago, in the Seattle Post-Intelligencer say about the charitable
nature of our society?  
 
http://seattlepi.nwsource.com/local/36928_jump29.shtml
 
I also am interested in understanding what being an "overly enthusiastic
cheerleader for the red white and blue" has to do with a
characterization of another society as "intolerant".  This appears to
equate patriotism with a sense of moral-cultural superiority.  
 
On a lighter note, to all the Texas-Tech fans in the family, there was a
great ball game on Saturday that I hope you didn't miss.
 
Love,
 
Owen 
-----Original Message-----
From: owen-bounces@owenconnections.com
[mailto:owen-bounces@owenconnections.com] On Behalf Of Owen, Dan
Sent: Monday, February 09, 2004 7:40 AM
To: 'owen@owenconnections.com'
Subject: RE: [owen] idle speculation
 
Lawrence,
 
I think folks will draw their own conclusions from the incident on Mt.
Elbra.  I do not think Russians are born morally inferior to Americans
but I do believe that being raised in that country has spawn people that
are generally less charitable than others.  I'm not sure if it is their
communist heritage, chronic shortages, cold winters or those big furry
hats they wear.  Seems to be a lot of hatred over their and little
tolerance for differences.  Last time I checked we still have forces in
Kosovo.  I realize we have our fair share of hatred and intolerance in
our country but no where to the degree in Eastern Europe.  Could be I am
xenophobic and an overly enthusiastic cheerleader for the red white and
blue. 
 
I find it curious you found a way to pull President Bush into this
discussion.  Seems to me we did provide support to Hussein in the early
80's.  The common enemy then was Iran. (remember the hostage crisis)
Hussein had a choice then to lead Iraq to greatness or turn on his own
people and enrich himself at their expense.  It is very easy to be a
Monday morning quarterback.  President Reagan is celebrating his 92nd
birthday, was his decision to help Iraq in the early 80's evil?  I doubt
very seriously we would have helped Hussein then if we had known what we
know now.  Also I doubt President Bush would have invaded Iraq if we had
known Hussein did not have WMD's.  There seems to be evidence indicating
that Hussein thought he had WMD's.  We will probably never know for sure
but the environment he created produced a society of mistrust,
dishonesty and evil.  I believe you reap what you sew and the Hussein
heritage will leave a stain on that society for generations to come.
Kind of like Russia.     
 
Questionable associations with potentially evil nations is nothing new.
The same thing is going on right now with our Pakistan alliance.  It may
prove to be a brilliant strategy or a huge mistake.  I think you would
agree no person or nation is all good or all evil.  You "makes" a
decision and you "takes" your chances.  No doubt there will be plenty to
criticize in the years to come.  I bet if you ask the Indian government
what they think about our alliance with Pakistan the axis of evil thing
would come up.  At least they admitted to selling nuclear technology.
Would that have happened before we declared our war on terrorism?  At
least we know now who they helped into the nuclear club.  Is it better
to know who to fear or is it better to be blissfully ignorant?  As
always there are more questions than answers.  
 
It is going to be in the mid-30's today.  First time we will have been
above freezing in four weeks.  That is something Howard Dean can really
scream about.
 
Love you all Dan O..............  
 
  
 
       
 
  
-----Original Message-----
From: owen-bounces@owenconnections.com
[mailto:owen-bounces@owenconnections.com]On Behalf Of lawrence
Sent: Monday, February 09, 2004 9:30 AM
To: owen@owenconnections.com
Subject: [owen] idle speculation
Thank you, Dan, for the story about the kind Americans and the mean 
Russians.  Should we conclude that Americans are morally superior to 
Russians?    Or that in some specific circumstances a couple of
Americans
behaved a good deal better than some Russians.  
 
If Bush had been president of  Outer Beaconland in the 1980s, and 
watched the United States supply aid, chemical equipment, military
equipment and moral support to Saddam Hussein, would he have 
called the United States part of the axis of evil?
 
Cheers -
Lawrence
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From Dowen at wcvt.com  Mon Feb  9 10:51:33 2004
From: Dowen at wcvt.com (Owen, Dan)
Date: Thu Mar 24 11:50:11 2005
Subject: [owen] idle speculation
Message-ID: <3367C8BA324FD311AD06009027514849015F3D91@tnet.wcvt.com>

Owen,
 
Oops, I made the  mistake of sharing my opinion.  I will try to be more
reserved in the future.  No doubt my opinion is half baked and probably not
very open minded.  I base my opinion on what I have been able to discern
from news reports about the former Soviet Union.  Also the great villains in
today's movies portraying evil Russian Mafia types.  Never the less Russia
seems to have had a number of problems adjusting to a market economy, unlike
China for example.  Why does a country with so many natural resources have
such poor living conditions?  I submit it may have something to do with the
society the people live in.  Not a politically correct opinion but it it the
one I have.  I have not had the opportunity to visit that part of the world
but I would sure like to some day.  I realize my opinion goes against the
notion that the world is one giant Coca-Cola commercial where we all hold
hands and sing "I wish to teach the world to sing in perfect harmony".   I
do believe that over time as the Russian standard of living rises we will
see a change.  I believe poor behavior is learned and not genetic.  What do
you think?
 
Dan O.........................     
-----Original Message-----
From: owen-bounces@owenconnections.com
[mailto:owen-bounces@owenconnections.com]On Behalf Of Owen and Zuzana Newman
Sent: Monday, February 09, 2004 9:40 AM
To: owen@owenconnections.com
Subject: RE: [owen] idle speculation


Dan,
 
I am interested in understanding the basis for your conclusion that Russians
are less charitable than others or that Eastern Europeans harbor "a lot of
hatred ... and little tolerance for differences".  Are your conclusions
based solely on the incident you described on Mt. Elbra, or do you believe
that your characterizations apply to the society in general?  Your comments
that it may be the result of "communist heritage, chronic shortages, cold
winters or those big furry hats they wear", while at least partially in
jest, would indicate that you believe the characterization applies to the
society in general.  If you base your characterizations upon other evidence,
I'd be interested to hear it.  
 
I find it difficult to characterize a country and its people on the
unfortunate actions of a few individuals and upon an isolated incident such
as that on Mt. Elbra.  You acknowledge that "we have our fair share of
hatred and intolerance in our country", but contrast that as "no where to
the degree in Eastern Europe".  This appears to be inconsistent with a
conclusion regarding the nature of Eastern Europeans based upon a single
incident.  If the Mt. Elbra story reflects on Eastern European society in
general, what does the following story, reported several years ago, in the
Seattle Post-Intelligencer say about the charitable nature of our society?  
 
http://seattlepi.nwsource.com/local/36928_jump29.shtml
<http://seattlepi.nwsource.com/local/36928_jump29.shtml> 
 
I also am interested in understanding what being an "overly enthusiastic
cheerleader for the red white and blue" has to do with a characterization of
another society as "intolerant".  This appears to equate patriotism with a
sense of moral-cultural superiority.  
 
On a lighter note, to all the Texas-Tech fans in the family, there was a
great ball game on Saturday that I hope you didn't miss.
 
Love,
 
Owen 
-----Original Message-----
From: owen-bounces@owenconnections.com
[mailto:owen-bounces@owenconnections.com] On Behalf Of Owen, Dan
Sent: Monday, February 09, 2004 7:40 AM
To: 'owen@owenconnections.com'
Subject: RE: [owen] idle speculation
 
Lawrence,
 
I think folks will draw their own conclusions from the incident on Mt.
Elbra.  I do not think Russians are born morally inferior to Americans but I
do believe that being raised in that country has spawn people that are
generally less charitable than others.  I'm not sure if it is their
communist heritage, chronic shortages, cold winters or those big furry hats
they wear.  Seems to be a lot of hatred over their and little tolerance for
differences.  Last time I checked we still have forces in Kosovo.  I realize
we have our fair share of hatred and intolerance in our country but no where
to the degree in Eastern Europe.  Could be I am xenophobic and an overly
enthusiastic cheerleader for the red white and blue. 
 
I find it curious you found a way to pull President Bush into this
discussion.  Seems to me we did provide support to Hussein in the early
80's.  The common enemy then was Iran. (remember the hostage crisis)
Hussein had a choice then to lead Iraq to greatness or turn on his own
people and enrich himself at their expense.  It is very easy to be a Monday
morning quarterback.  President Reagan is celebrating his 92nd birthday, was
his decision to help Iraq in the early 80's evil?  I doubt very seriously we
would have helped Hussein then if we had known what we know now.  Also I
doubt President Bush would have invaded Iraq if we had known Hussein did not
have WMD's.  There seems to be evidence indicating that Hussein thought he
had WMD's.  We will probably never know for sure but the environment he
created produced a society of mistrust, dishonesty and evil.  I believe you
reap what you sew and the Hussein heritage will leave a stain on that
society for generations to come.  Kind of like Russia.     
 
Questionable associations with potentially evil nations is nothing new.  The
same thing is going on right now with our Pakistan alliance.  It may prove
to be a brilliant strategy or a huge mistake.  I think you would agree no
person or nation is all good or all evil.  You "makes" a decision and you
"takes" your chances.  No doubt there will be plenty to criticize in the
years to come.  I bet if you ask the Indian government what they think about
our alliance with Pakistan the axis of evil thing would come up.  At least
they admitted to selling nuclear technology.  Would that have happened
before we declared our war on terrorism?  At least we know now who they
helped into the nuclear club.  Is it better to know who to fear or is it
better to be blissfully ignorant?  As always there are more questions than
answers.  
 
It is going to be in the mid-30's today.  First time we will have been above
freezing in four weeks.  That is something Howard Dean can really scream
about.
 
Love you all Dan O..............  
 
  
 
       
 
  
-----Original Message-----
From: owen-bounces@owenconnections.com
[mailto:owen-bounces@owenconnections.com]On Behalf Of lawrence
Sent: Monday, February 09, 2004 9:30 AM
To: owen@owenconnections.com
Subject: [owen] idle speculation
Thank you, Dan, for the story about the kind Americans and the mean 
Russians.  Should we conclude that Americans are morally superior to 
Russians?    Or that in some specific circumstances a couple of Americans
behaved a good deal better than some Russians.  
 
If Bush had been president of  Outer Beaconland in the 1980s, and 
watched the United States supply aid, chemical equipment, military
equipment and moral support to Saddam Hussein, would he have 
called the United States part of the axis of evil?
 
Cheers -
Lawrence
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From klowen at hsnp.com  Mon Feb  9 13:33:13 2004
From: klowen at hsnp.com (lawrence)
Date: Thu Mar 24 11:50:12 2005
Subject: [owen] curious
Message-ID: <001201c3ef3b$2dcca0c0$9989fea9@oemcomputer>

Dan --
You wrote that you find it curious that I found a way to bring Bush into the discussion.
OK.  Let's begin by attributing my doing so to my desire to besmirch our president.  That is very likely all the explanation needed or called for.

However, let's  pursue it just in the spirit of being curious about things.
Bush very prominently used evil in his 2003 State of the Union address.
Bush identifies himself as an evangelical Christian.  Some evangelical
Christians contend that there are moral absolutes, which means that what
is evil in 2003 would also have been evil in 1985.

The U S government supplied Iraq with means to produce chemical weapons.
Iraq used chemical weapons against Iran.  The United States government 
did not condemn Iraq for doing so.   That was then.

Now our president condemns Saddam Hussein (Bush always personalizes it)
for using chemical weapons against Kurds.  

I suggest that when it comes to the conduct of nations, to international
affairs, that the winners get to say what's evil and what's not.  And a nation
can find it in its interest to be quiet about behavior then,  which today will be
called, and in heavily moralistic terms,  evil.

Cheers  --  Lawrence



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From Dowen at wcvt.com  Mon Feb  9 13:33:39 2004
From: Dowen at wcvt.com (Owen, Dan)
Date: Thu Mar 24 11:50:12 2005
Subject: [owen] curious
Message-ID: <3367C8BA324FD311AD06009027514849015F3D96@tnet.wcvt.com>

Lawrence,
 
Did you happen to see 60 Minutes last night?  They had a great segment
concerning Evangelical Christians.  They interviewed Gary Bauer and talked
about the support President Bush has from this group.  They discussed the
rapture.  They showed a religious  movie with children under twelve along
with true believers disappearing suddenly, leaving just their clothing
behind.  Talk about your absolutes.   Also there was another segment
concerning Iraq and the injuries to innocent folks.  The nurse wheeling the
young Iraqi boy around in the Hospital is the daughter of a fellow that
works for me.  She has been over there a year now and is expected home soon.
Nate went to school with her.
 
Anyway I digress, you mentioned: "that the winners get to say what's evil
and what's not".   Well yeah!!!!!!!    All kidding aside, has there ever
been a time in history when the winners did not write the history or define
the justification?.  The old saying "to the victors go the spoils" is so
true.  Uncle Jack has mentioned numerous times how the Native Americans got
screwed when our ancestors settled North America.  If this was an evil act
does it then make the decedents like us evil also?  If so when do you stop
correcting previous wrongs?  Seems to me we would be having one continuous
pity party if we went down this road.  I bet when we gave assistance to
Hussein that the experts believed it was a great move.
 
I agree with you time changes everything.  How many of us are driving
Japanese and German cars?  (I drive a Volkswagen)  I bet if you would have
asked Americans the chances of that in the years after World War II that the
answer would have been radically different than today.  We are doing
business in Vietnam now.    Everyone has selective memory loss when it is in
their best interests.  This applies to citizens, leaders and nations.  
 
Seems to me I was going to be more reserved with my opinions.  Oh well, I
also had a New Years resolution to be less judgmental.  I am so fickle.
Hopefully I haven't offended anyone.  It was just brought to my attention
that Owen's wife Zu is from the Czech Republic.  If my Russian comments were
hurtful I am truly sorry.  It is never my intention to be hurtful.  My goal
is to stimulate thought and to help straighten out my own crooked thinking.
I question many things lately that in years past I took as absolutes.  You
and the owenconnection play a part in my intellectual growth.
Thanks..................
 
Love you all Dan O................
 
      

-----Original Message-----
From: owen-bounces@owenconnections.com
[mailto:owen-bounces@owenconnections.com]On Behalf Of lawrence
Sent: Monday, February 09, 2004 1:33 PM
To: owen@owenconnections.com
Subject: [owen] curious


Dan --
You wrote that you find it curious that I found a way to bring Bush into the
discussion.
OK.  Let's begin by attributing my doing so to my desire to besmirch our
president.  That is very likely all the explanation needed or called for.
 
However, let's pursue it just in the spirit of being curious about things.
Bush very prominently used evil in his 2003 State of the Union address.
Bush identifies himself as an evangelical Christian.  Some evangelical
Christians contend that there are moral absolutes, which means that what
is evil in 2003 would also have been evil in 1985.
 
The U S government supplied Iraq with means to produce chemical weapons.
Iraq used chemical weapons against Iran.  The United States government 
did not condemn Iraq for doing so.   That was then.
 
Now our president condemns Saddam Hussein (Bush always personalizes it)
for using chemical weapons against Kurds.  
 
I suggest that when it comes to the conduct of nations, to international
affairs, that the winners get to say what's evil and what's not.  And a
nation
can find it in its interest to be quiet about behavior then, which today
will be
called, and in heavily moralistic terms,  evil.
 
Cheers  --  Lawrence
 
 
 

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From newman at binhost.com  Mon Feb  9 13:01:05 2004
From: newman at binhost.com (Owen and Zuzana Newman)
Date: Thu Mar 24 11:50:12 2005
Subject: [owen] idle speculation
In-Reply-To: <3367C8BA324FD311AD06009027514849015F3D91@tnet.wcvt.com>
Message-ID: <002a01c3ef36$b0000690$0200a8c0@neighbor>

Dan,
 
I hope to never see the day where the world is one giant Coca-Cola
commercial, where we all hold hands singing "I wish to teach the world
to sing in perfect harmony".  Harmony may be nice to listen to, but it
rarely is very interesting.  The great composers understood this,
Beethoven, Mahler, Rachmaninov, Stravinski, all used discord to
captivate and intrigue.  Discord is what makes life interesting.  It is
in this vein, that I hope you do not view the expression of your
opinion, no matter how provocative, as a "mistake".  It appears to me
that to be more reserved in the future, is to become a part of the great
Coca-Cola commercial.  
 
As for Russia and other Eastern European countries' difficulties in
adjusting to a market economy, I am not convinced that China is an
appropriate standard of comparison.  China's government, unlike the
Soviet regime between 1945 and 1989, successfully participates in the
global economy, however this does not translate into a democratic style
market economy.  Within the Chinese borders, I believe that we would see
a much different scenario.  
 
You suggest that many of the problems experienced in transitioning to a
market economy stem from the society the people live in.  I agree.
Adapting to a democratic politic and transition to a market economy,
when viewed through the eyes of someone who grew up in a communist
society is difficult at best.  (Here is a link to a post my wife made in
2002 describing her experiences in communist Czech:
http://archives.owenconnections.com/2002-10/msg00009.html )  However, I
do not equate the difficulties experienced throughout Eastern Europe to
"poor behavior".  I have traveled extensively in the Czech Republic,
have studied at Charles University in Prague, and am honored to be a
member of a Czech family, and throughout these experiences I have not
seen the type of behavior you describe.  Instead, I see people with a
keen sense of entrepreneurial spirit, open hearts, and an unrivaled
appreciation for the good things in life.  Economically, this region of
the world has had a difficult transition, they have not learned to
maximize natural resources, or participate as fully in a global economy
as other countries, but this is not the product of moral or ethical
defect (learned or genetic).  Additionally, opportunistic behavior by
foreign interests looking to make a quick buck exploiting low wages and
a favorable exchange rate, have served only to the detriment of a
successful transition.
 
You ask me whether I believe "poor behavior" is learned or genetic.  I
believe the answer is both.  I accept much of the scientific research
indicating that at the very least, we are genetically predisposed to
certain behaviors.  This is not an excuse for poor behavior.  Learned
behavior, I believe, is superimposed over this genetic predisposition,
it may exacerbate it, or it may alter it, individuals are still
accountable for their own actions and in control of their own destinies.

 
Keep up the beautiful discord,
Owen  
 
 
 
-----Original Message-----
From: owen-bounces@owenconnections.com
[mailto:owen-bounces@owenconnections.com] On Behalf Of Owen, Dan
Sent: Monday, February 09, 2004 9:52 AM
To: 'owen@owenconnections.com'
Subject: RE: [owen] idle speculation
 
Owen,
 
Oops, I made the  mistake of sharing my opinion.  I will try to be more
reserved in the future.  No doubt my opinion is half baked and probably
not very open minded.  I base my opinion on what I have been able to
discern from news reports about the former Soviet Union.  Also the great
villains in today's movies portraying evil Russian Mafia types.  Never
the less Russia seems to have had a number of problems adjusting to a
market economy, unlike China for example.  Why does a country with so
many natural resources have such poor living conditions?  I submit it
may have something to do with the society the people live in.  Not a
politically correct opinion but it it the one I have.  I have not had
the opportunity to visit that part of the world but I would sure like to
some day.  I realize my opinion goes against the notion that the world
is one giant Coca-Cola commercial where we all hold hands and sing "I
wish to teach the world to sing in perfect harmony".   I do believe that
over time as the Russian standard of living rises we will see a change.
I believe poor behavior is learned and not genetic.  What do you think?
 
Dan O.........................     
-----Original Message-----
From: owen-bounces@owenconnections.com
[mailto:owen-bounces@owenconnections.com]On Behalf Of Owen and Zuzana
Newman
Sent: Monday, February 09, 2004 9:40 AM
To: owen@owenconnections.com
Subject: RE: [owen] idle speculation
Dan,
 
I am interested in understanding the basis for your conclusion that
Russians are less charitable than others or that Eastern Europeans
harbor "a lot of hatred . and little tolerance for differences".  Are
your conclusions based solely on the incident you described on Mt.
Elbra, or do you believe that your characterizations apply to the
society in general?  Your comments that it may be the result of
"communist heritage, chronic shortages, cold winters or those big furry
hats they wear", while at least partially in jest, would indicate that
you believe the characterization applies to the society in general.  If
you base your characterizations upon other evidence, I'd be interested
to hear it.  
 
I find it difficult to characterize a country and its people on the
unfortunate actions of a few individuals and upon an isolated incident
such as that on Mt. Elbra.  You acknowledge that "we have our fair share
of hatred and intolerance in our country", but contrast that as "no
where to the degree in Eastern Europe".  This appears to be inconsistent
with a conclusion regarding the nature of Eastern Europeans based upon a
single incident.  If the Mt. Elbra story reflects on Eastern European
society in general, what does the following story, reported several
years ago, in the Seattle Post-Intelligencer say about the charitable
nature of our society?  
 
http://seattlepi.nwsource.com/local/36928_jump29.shtml
 
I also am interested in understanding what being an "overly enthusiastic
cheerleader for the red white and blue" has to do with a
characterization of another society as "intolerant".  This appears to
equate patriotism with a sense of moral-cultural superiority.  
 
On a lighter note, to all the Texas-Tech fans in the family, there was a
great ball game on Saturday that I hope you didn't miss.
 
Love,
 
Owen 
-----Original Message-----
From: owen-bounces@owenconnections.com
[mailto:owen-bounces@owenconnections.com] On Behalf Of Owen, Dan
Sent: Monday, February 09, 2004 7:40 AM
To: 'owen@owenconnections.com'
Subject: RE: [owen] idle speculation
 
Lawrence,
 
I think folks will draw their own conclusions from the incident on Mt.
Elbra.  I do not think Russians are born morally inferior to Americans
but I do believe that being raised in that country has spawn people that
are generally less charitable than others.  I'm not sure if it is their
communist heritage, chronic shortages, cold winters or those big furry
hats they wear.  Seems to be a lot of hatred over their and little
tolerance for differences.  Last time I checked we still have forces in
Kosovo.  I realize we have our fair share of hatred and intolerance in
our country but no where to the degree in Eastern Europe.  Could be I am
xenophobic and an overly enthusiastic cheerleader for the red white and
blue. 
 
I find it curious you found a way to pull President Bush into this
discussion.  Seems to me we did provide support to Hussein in the early
80's.  The common enemy then was Iran. (remember the hostage crisis)
Hussein had a choice then to lead Iraq to greatness or turn on his own
people and enrich himself at their expense.  It is very easy to be a
Monday morning quarterback.  President Reagan is celebrating his 92nd
birthday, was his decision to help Iraq in the early 80's evil?  I doubt
very seriously we would have helped Hussein then if we had known what we
know now.  Also I doubt President Bush would have invaded Iraq if we had
known Hussein did not have WMD's.  There seems to be evidence indicating
that Hussein thought he had WMD's.  We will probably never know for sure
but the environment he created produced a society of mistrust,
dishonesty and evil.  I believe you reap what you sew and the Hussein
heritage will leave a stain on that society for generations to come.
Kind of like Russia.     
 
Questionable associations with potentially evil nations is nothing new.
The same thing is going on right now with our Pakistan alliance.  It may
prove to be a brilliant strategy or a huge mistake.  I think you would
agree no person or nation is all good or all evil.  You "makes" a
decision and you "takes" your chances.  No doubt there will be plenty to
criticize in the years to come.  I bet if you ask the Indian government
what they think about our alliance with Pakistan the axis of evil thing
would come up.  At least they admitted to selling nuclear technology.
Would that have happened before we declared our war on terrorism?  At
least we know now who they helped into the nuclear club.  Is it better
to know who to fear or is it better to be blissfully ignorant?  As
always there are more questions than answers.  
 
It is going to be in the mid-30's today.  First time we will have been
above freezing in four weeks.  That is something Howard Dean can really
scream about.
 
Love you all Dan O..............  
 
  
 
       
 
  
-----Original Message-----
From: owen-bounces@owenconnections.com
[mailto:owen-bounces@owenconnections.com]On Behalf Of lawrence
Sent: Monday, February 09, 2004 9:30 AM
To: owen@owenconnections.com
Subject: [owen] idle speculation
Thank you, Dan, for the story about the kind Americans and the mean 
Russians.  Should we conclude that Americans are morally superior to 
Russians?    Or that in some specific circumstances a couple of
Americans
behaved a good deal better than some Russians.  
 
If Bush had been president of  Outer Beaconland in the 1980s, and 
watched the United States supply aid, chemical equipment, military
equipment and moral support to Saddam Hussein, would he have 
called the United States part of the axis of evil?
 
Cheers -
Lawrence
-------------- next part --------------
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From Dowen at wcvt.com  Mon Feb  9 15:07:11 2004
From: Dowen at wcvt.com (Owen, Dan)
Date: Thu Mar 24 11:50:12 2005
Subject: [owen] idle speculation
Message-ID: <3367C8BA324FD311AD06009027514849015F3D98@tnet.wcvt.com>

Owen,
 
Let me get this straight:
 
1) China shouldn't be compared with Russia because they had (1945 thru 1989)
a more open communist society.
2)  Poor behavior is both learned and inherited. 
3) Eastern Europeans have foreign opportunists to blame for their poor
recovery.
 
Please pardon my crass observation but it sounds to me that you feel the
Eastern European peoples have little or no responsibly for their plight.
Please correct me if I incorrectly understand your position.  
 
I think Eastern Europeans were victims of an oppressive communist state up
until they were set free.  (in large part by the actions of President
Reagan)  But that was over twenty years ago.  The Chinese are still run by a
quasi communist state and just look at them go now.  Have you been to Wal
Mart lately?  Seems everything is Chinese made.  
 
If poor behavior is both learned and inherited then it seems to me we all
have more than enough excuses to blame either our parents or our government.
Perhaps we should prosecute parents for the bad deeds of their children if
the blame for crimes is somehow genetic.
 
Thanks for your kind invitation to participate in discord.  I do so love to
debate.
 
Love you all Dan O...............
 
      
-----Original Message-----
From: owen-bounces@owenconnections.com
[mailto:owen-bounces@owenconnections.com]On Behalf Of Owen and Zuzana Newman
Sent: Monday, February 09, 2004 1:01 PM
To: owen@owenconnections.com
Subject: RE: [owen] idle speculation


Dan,
 
I hope to never see the day where the world is one giant Coca-Cola
commercial, where we all hold hands singing "I wish to teach the world to
sing in perfect harmony".  Harmony may be nice to listen to, but it rarely
is very interesting.  The great composers understood this, Beethoven,
Mahler, Rachmaninov, Stravinski, all used discord to captivate and intrigue.
Discord is what makes life interesting.  It is in this vein, that I hope you
do not view the expression of your opinion, no matter how provocative, as a
"mistake".  It appears to me that to be more reserved in the future, is to
become a part of the great Coca-Cola commercial.  
 
As for Russia and other Eastern European countries' difficulties in
adjusting to a market economy, I am not convinced that China is an
appropriate standard of comparison.  China's government, unlike the Soviet
regime between 1945 and 1989, successfully participates in the global
economy, however this does not translate into a democratic style market
economy.  Within the Chinese borders, I believe that we would see a much
different scenario.  
 
You suggest that many of the problems experienced in transitioning to a
market economy stem from the society the people live in.  I agree.  Adapting
to a democratic politic and transition to a market economy, when viewed
through the eyes of someone who grew up in a communist society is difficult
at best.  (Here is a link to a post my wife made in 2002 describing her
experiences in communist Czech:
http://archives.owenconnections.com/2002-10/msg00009.html
<http://archives.owenconnections.com/2002-10/msg00009.html>  )  However, I
do not equate the difficulties experienced throughout Eastern Europe to
"poor behavior".  I have traveled extensively in the Czech Republic, have
studied at Charles University in Prague, and am honored to be a member of a
Czech family, and throughout these experiences I have not seen the type of
behavior you describe.  Instead, I see people with a keen sense of
entrepreneurial spirit, open hearts, and an unrivaled appreciation for the
good things in life.  Economically, this region of the world has had a
difficult transition, they have not learned to maximize natural resources,
or participate as fully in a global economy as other countries, but this is
not the product of moral or ethical defect (learned or genetic).
Additionally, opportunistic behavior by foreign interests looking to make a
quick buck exploiting low wages and a favorable exchange rate, have served
only to the detriment of a successful transition.
 
You ask me whether I believe "poor behavior" is learned or genetic.  I
believe the answer is both.  I accept much of the scientific research
indicating that at the very least, we are genetically predisposed to certain
behaviors.  This is not an excuse for poor behavior.  Learned behavior, I
believe, is superimposed over this genetic predisposition, it may exacerbate
it, or it may alter it, individuals are still accountable for their own
actions and in control of their own destinies.  
 
Keep up the beautiful discord,
Owen  
 
 
 
-----Original Message-----
From: owen-bounces@owenconnections.com
[mailto:owen-bounces@owenconnections.com] On Behalf Of Owen, Dan
Sent: Monday, February 09, 2004 9:52 AM
To: 'owen@owenconnections.com'
Subject: RE: [owen] idle speculation
 
Owen,
 
Oops, I made the  mistake of sharing my opinion.  I will try to be more
reserved in the future.  No doubt my opinion is half baked and probably not
very open minded.  I base my opinion on what I have been able to discern
from news reports about the former Soviet Union.  Also the great villains in
today's movies portraying evil Russian Mafia types.  Never the less Russia
seems to have had a number of problems adjusting to a market economy, unlike
China for example.  Why does a country with so many natural resources have
such poor living conditions?  I submit it may have something to do with the
society the people live in.  Not a politically correct opinion but it it the
one I have.  I have not had the opportunity to visit that part of the world
but I would sure like to some day.  I realize my opinion goes against the
notion that the world is one giant Coca-Cola commercial where we all hold
hands and sing "I wish to teach the world to sing in perfect harmony".   I
do believe that over time as the Russian standard of living rises we will
see a change.  I believe poor behavior is learned and not genetic.  What do
you think?
 
Dan O.........................     
-----Original Message-----
From: owen-bounces@owenconnections.com
[mailto:owen-bounces@owenconnections.com]On Behalf Of Owen and Zuzana Newman
Sent: Monday, February 09, 2004 9:40 AM
To: owen@owenconnections.com
Subject: RE: [owen] idle speculation
Dan,
 
I am interested in understanding the basis for your conclusion that Russians
are less charitable than others or that Eastern Europeans harbor "a lot of
hatred ... and little tolerance for differences".  Are your conclusions
based solely on the incident you described on Mt. Elbra, or do you believe
that your characterizations apply to the society in general?  Your comments
that it may be the result of "communist heritage, chronic shortages, cold
winters or those big furry hats they wear", while at least partially in
jest, would indicate that you believe the characterization applies to the
society in general.  If you base your characterizations upon other evidence,
I'd be interested to hear it.  
 
I find it difficult to characterize a country and its people on the
unfortunate actions of a few individuals and upon an isolated incident such
as that on Mt. Elbra.  You acknowledge that "we have our fair share of
hatred and intolerance in our country", but contrast that as "no where to
the degree in Eastern Europe".  This appears to be inconsistent with a
conclusion regarding the nature of Eastern Europeans based upon a single
incident.  If the Mt. Elbra story reflects on Eastern European society in
general, what does the following story, reported several years ago, in the
Seattle Post-Intelligencer say about the charitable nature of our society?  
 
http://seattlepi.nwsource.com/local/36928_jump29.shtml
<http://seattlepi.nwsource.com/local/36928_jump29.shtml> 
 
I also am interested in understanding what being an "overly enthusiastic
cheerleader for the red white and blue" has to do with a characterization of
another society as "intolerant".  This appears to equate patriotism with a
sense of moral-cultural superiority.  
 
On a lighter note, to all the Texas-Tech fans in the family, there was a
great ball game on Saturday that I hope you didn't miss.
 
Love,
 
Owen 
-----Original Message-----
From: owen-bounces@owenconnections.com
[mailto:owen-bounces@owenconnections.com] On Behalf Of Owen, Dan
Sent: Monday, February 09, 2004 7:40 AM
To: 'owen@owenconnections.com'
Subject: RE: [owen] idle speculation
 
Lawrence,
 
I think folks will draw their own conclusions from the incident on Mt.
Elbra.  I do not think Russians are born morally inferior to Americans but I
do believe that being raised in that country has spawn people that are
generally less charitable than others.  I'm not sure if it is their
communist heritage, chronic shortages, cold winters or those big furry hats
they wear.  Seems to be a lot of hatred over their and little tolerance for
differences.  Last time I checked we still have forces in Kosovo.  I realize
we have our fair share of hatred and intolerance in our country but no where
to the degree in Eastern Europe.  Could be I am xenophobic and an overly
enthusiastic cheerleader for the red white and blue. 
 
I find it curious you found a way to pull President Bush into this
discussion.  Seems to me we did provide support to Hussein in the early
80's.  The common enemy then was Iran. (remember the hostage crisis)
Hussein had a choice then to lead Iraq to greatness or turn on his own
people and enrich himself at their expense.  It is very easy to be a Monday
morning quarterback.  President Reagan is celebrating his 92nd birthday, was
his decision to help Iraq in the early 80's evil?  I doubt very seriously we
would have helped Hussein then if we had known what we know now.  Also I
doubt President Bush would have invaded Iraq if we had known Hussein did not
have WMD's.  There seems to be evidence indicating that Hussein thought he
had WMD's.  We will probably never know for sure but the environment he
created produced a society of mistrust, dishonesty and evil.  I believe you
reap what you sew and the Hussein heritage will leave a stain on that
society for generations to come.  Kind of like Russia.     
 
Questionable associations with potentially evil nations is nothing new.  The
same thing is going on right now with our Pakistan alliance.  It may prove
to be a brilliant strategy or a huge mistake.  I think you would agree no
person or nation is all good or all evil.  You "makes" a decision and you
"takes" your chances.  No doubt there will be plenty to criticize in the
years to come.  I bet if you ask the Indian government what they think about
our alliance with Pakistan the axis of evil thing would come up.  At least
they admitted to selling nuclear technology.  Would that have happened
before we declared our war on terrorism?  At least we know now who they
helped into the nuclear club.  Is it better to know who to fear or is it
better to be blissfully ignorant?  As always there are more questions than
answers.  
 
It is going to be in the mid-30's today.  First time we will have been above
freezing in four weeks.  That is something Howard Dean can really scream
about.
 
Love you all Dan O..............  
 
  
 
       
 
  
-----Original Message-----
From: owen-bounces@owenconnections.com
[mailto:owen-bounces@owenconnections.com]On Behalf Of lawrence
Sent: Monday, February 09, 2004 9:30 AM
To: owen@owenconnections.com
Subject: [owen] idle speculation
Thank you, Dan, for the story about the kind Americans and the mean 
Russians.  Should we conclude that Americans are morally superior to 
Russians?    Or that in some specific circumstances a couple of Americans
behaved a good deal better than some Russians.  
 
If Bush had been president of  Outer Beaconland in the 1980s, and 
watched the United States supply aid, chemical equipment, military
equipment and moral support to Saddam Hussein, would he have 
called the United States part of the axis of evil?
 
Cheers -
Lawrence
-------------- next part --------------
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From newman at binhost.com  Mon Feb  9 22:00:00 2004
From: newman at binhost.com (Owen and Zuzana Newman)
Date: Thu Mar 24 11:50:12 2005
Subject: [owen] idle speculation
In-Reply-To: <3367C8BA324FD311AD06009027514849015F3D98@tnet.wcvt.com>
Message-ID: <000801c3ef81$f9520eb0$0200a8c0@neighbor>

 
 
 
            
Owen,
 
Let me get this straight:
 
1) China shouldn't be compared with Russia because they had (1945 thru
1989) a more open communist society.
 
            China's transition to a market economy cannot be compared
with the Eastern Europe experience because of the context they have
occurred in.  China's communist government began making the transition
to a market economy in 1978.  The transition has been heavily regulated
by the government, and has taken 26 years to develop.  China also
refused to accompany economic transition with social or political
change.  The Chinese people do not enjoy many of the freedoms we expect
from modern democracies.  Much of China's economic success stems
directly from manufacturing, the products in WalMart, are manufactured
in conditions that would not be tolerated elsewhere in the world.  In
fact WalMart is currently being criticized for this very thing:
http://www.forbes.com/home_asia/newswire/2004/02/09/rtr1252821.html .
In contrast, economic transition in Eastern Europe occurred
simultaneously with political and social transformation.  Eastern Europe
began making the transition to market economies in 1989, and in light of
past government abuses was unable to make a more gradual transition.
The countries lacked both the fiscal as well as educational capital
required to successfully operate within the global market.  Legal
systems were not in place to stem abuses from within, as well as abroad.
Under the same circumstances, I believe China would have experienced
similar difficulties.  
            Most importantly for purposes of this conversation, I do not
believe it can be stated that China succeeded because the Chinese people
are "better behaved" and the Europeans have struggled due to their "poor
behavior".
 
2)  Poor behavior is both learned and inherited. 
 
3) Eastern Europeans have foreign opportunists to blame for their poor
recovery.
 
            I do not believe that I laid all the blame for Eastern
Europe's poor recovery at the feet of foreign opportunists.  In fact,
the point I hoped to make was that much of the blame lies in the
circumstances surrounding the transition.  As I already mentioned,
transitioning economies often lack the sufficient fiscal and educational
capital to succeed.  For over 40 years, the Eastern European populous
received minimal wages, were banned from owning private property, and
received no education in free market economics.  Over the last 14 years,
I believe that Eastern European governments have done an admirable (not
exceptional) job putting their economies in the position they are in
today.  Every year that I return to Czech I see marked improvement in
their standard of living.  My observation regarding foreign opportunists
was only that they exacerbated the difficulties. 
 
Please pardon my crass observation but it sounds to me that you feel the
Eastern European peoples have little or no responsibly for their plight.
Please correct me if I incorrectly understand your position.  
 
I hope that I have clarified my position on this point.  However, in the
interests of removing all doubt, Eastern Europeans do bear much of the
responsibility for the slow transition.  In addition to the difficulties
created by the context in which Eastern Europe's transition occurred,
many transitioning countries lack a sense of identity and consequently
suffer from a victim mentality and false sense of entitlement.  In
Czech, the people had to create a new government from scratch.  They
were bombarded by Western countries each with their own sense of what
type of government the Czechs should adopt, and how to accomplish it.
(In fact Frank Zappa served as one of Czech's primary consultants to the
adoption of their new constitution)  Were they to follow an American
model, French, German, Swiss?  They were understandably leery of
government regulation, but afraid to discard the social welfare system
they enjoyed under communism.  Without a profound sense of who they are
as a nation, the political consensus necessary to enact needed reforms
is difficult to attain.
Many Czechs received their sole exposure to American culture from
Baywatch, and expected that once the communists were gone, they too
could live on a beach with Pamela Anderson.  Economic transition however
is not that easy, and a strong government, able to enact unpopular
reforms is required. (The Chinese government, not subject to an
electorate would qualify) Obviously this did not happen.
Unemployment was and continues to remain high (in the town where my wife
is from, unemployment is close to 25%) further exacerbating the seeming
lack of identity and general malaise.  What has developed is a false
sense of entitlement.  Many in the younger generation believe that the
government owes them something and that rather than taking control over
their own destiny, they are victims, entitled to special treatment.   It
is time that Czechs stop feeling sorry for themselves, get out of the
pubs and take control over their lives.  
 
 
I think Eastern Europeans were victims of an oppressive communist state
up until they were set free.  (in large part by the actions of President
Reagan)
 
            While President Reagan's policy of sacrificing the American
economy for massive quantities of military hardware played some role in
creating economic conditions ripe for wide-spread dissent, I think that
the individuals who summoned the courage to take to the streets in
defiance of an oppressive regime would take offense at giving credit "in
large part" to President Reagan.
 
  But that was over twenty years ago.  
 
            14 years ago.  Please don't imply that I'm that old already
:-)
 
The Chinese are still run by a quasi communist state and just look at
them go now.  Have you been to Wal Mart lately?  Seems everything is
Chinese made.  
 
            Please see the above link regarding Chinese products
manufactured for WalMart.
 
If poor behavior is both learned and inherited then it seems to me we
all have more than enough excuses to blame either our parents or our
government.  Perhaps we should prosecute parents for the bad deeds of
their children if the blame for crimes is somehow genetic.
 
            That is not what I said, or implied.  "You ask me whether I
believe "poor behavior" is learned or genetic.  I believe the answer is
both.  I accept much of the scientific research indicating that at the
very least, we are genetically predisposed to certain behaviors.  This
is not an excuse for poor behavior.  Learned behavior, I believe, is
superimposed over this genetic predisposition, it may exacerbate it, or
it may alter it, individuals are still accountable for their own actions
and in control of their own destinies."  
 
Thanks for your kind invitation to participate in discord.  I do so love
to debate.
 
            Ditto.
 
Love you all Dan O...............
 
Owen      
-----Original Message-----
From: owen-bounces@owenconnections.com
[mailto:owen-bounces@owenconnections.com]On Behalf Of Owen and Zuzana
Newman
Sent: Monday, February 09, 2004 1:01 PM
To: owen@owenconnections.com
Subject: RE: [owen] idle speculation
Dan,
 
I hope to never see the day where the world is one giant Coca-Cola
commercial, where we all hold hands singing "I wish to teach the world
to sing in perfect harmony".  Harmony may be nice to listen to, but it
rarely is very interesting.  The great composers understood this,
Beethoven, Mahler, Rachmaninov, Stravinski, all used discord to
captivate and intrigue.  Discord is what makes life interesting.  It is
in this vein, that I hope you do not view the expression of your
opinion, no matter how provocative, as a "mistake".  It appears to me
that to be more reserved in the future, is to become a part of the great
Coca-Cola commercial.  
 
As for Russia and other Eastern European countries' difficulties in
adjusting to a market economy, I am not convinced that China is an
appropriate standard of comparison.  China's government, unlike the
Soviet regime between 1945 and 1989, successfully participates in the
global economy, however this does not translate into a democratic style
market economy.  Within the Chinese borders, I believe that we would see
a much different scenario.  
 
You suggest that many of the problems experienced in transitioning to a
market economy stem from the society the people live in.  I agree.
Adapting to a democratic politic and transition to a market economy,
when viewed through the eyes of someone who grew up in a communist
society is difficult at best.  (Here is a link to a post my wife made in
2002 describing her experiences in communist Czech:
http://archives.owenconnections.com/2002-10/msg00009.html )  However, I
do not equate the difficulties experienced throughout Eastern Europe to
"poor behavior".  I have traveled extensively in the Czech Republic,
have studied at Charles University in Prague, and am honored to be a
member of a Czech family, and throughout these experiences I have not
seen the type of behavior you describe.  Instead, I see people with a
keen sense of entrepreneurial spirit, open hearts, and an unrivaled
appreciation for the good things in life.  Economically, this region of
the world has had a difficult transition, they have not learned to
maximize natural resources, or participate as fully in a global economy
as other countries, but this is not the product of moral or ethical
defect (learned or genetic).  Additionally, opportunistic behavior by
foreign interests looking to make a quick buck exploiting low wages and
a favorable exchange rate, have served only to the detriment of a
successful transition.
 
You ask me whether I believe "poor behavior" is learned or genetic.  I
believe the answer is both.  I accept much of the scientific research
indicating that at the very least, we are genetically predisposed to
certain behaviors.  This is not an excuse for poor behavior.  Learned
behavior, I believe, is superimposed over this genetic predisposition,
it may exacerbate it, or it may alter it, individuals are still
accountable for their own actions and in control of their own destinies.

 
Keep up the beautiful discord,
Owen  
 
 
 
-----Original Message-----
From: owen-bounces@owenconnections.com
[mailto:owen-bounces@owenconnections.com] On Behalf Of Owen, Dan
Sent: Monday, February 09, 2004 9:52 AM
To: 'owen@owenconnections.com'
Subject: RE: [owen] idle speculation
 
Owen,
 
Oops, I made the  mistake of sharing my opinion.  I will try to be more
reserved in the future.  No doubt my opinion is half baked and probably
not very open minded.  I base my opinion on what I have been able to
discern from news reports about the former Soviet Union.  Also the great
villains in today's movies portraying evil Russian Mafia types.  Never
the less Russia seems to have had a number of problems adjusting to a
market economy, unlike China for example.  Why does a country with so
many natural resources have such poor living conditions?  I submit it
may have something to do with the society the people live in.  Not a
politically correct opinion but it it the one I have.  I have not had
the opportunity to visit that part of the world but I would sure like to
some day.  I realize my opinion goes against the notion that the world
is one giant Coca-Cola commercial where we all hold hands and sing "I
wish to teach the world to sing in perfect harmony".   I do believe that
over time as the Russian standard of living rises we will see a change.
I believe poor behavior is learned and not genetic.  What do you think?
 
Dan O.........................     
-----Original Message-----
From: owen-bounces@owenconnections.com
[mailto:owen-bounces@owenconnections.com]On Behalf Of Owen and Zuzana
Newman
Sent: Monday, February 09, 2004 9:40 AM
To: owen@owenconnections.com
Subject: RE: [owen] idle speculation
Dan,
 
I am interested in understanding the basis for your conclusion that
Russians are less charitable than others or that Eastern Europeans
harbor "a lot of hatred . and little tolerance for differences".  Are
your conclusions based solely on the incident you described on Mt.
Elbra, or do you believe that your characterizations apply to the
society in general?  Your comments that it may be the result of
"communist heritage, chronic shortages, cold winters or those big furry
hats they wear", while at least partially in jest, would indicate that
you believe the characterization applies to the society in general.  If
you base your characterizations upon other evidence, I'd be interested
to hear it.  
 
I find it difficult to characterize a country and its people on the
unfortunate actions of a few individuals and upon an isolated incident
such as that on Mt. Elbra.  You acknowledge that "we have our fair share
of hatred and intolerance in our country", but contrast that as "no
where to the degree in Eastern Europe".  This appears to be inconsistent
with a conclusion regarding the nature of Eastern Europeans based upon a
single incident.  If the Mt. Elbra story reflects on Eastern European
society in general, what does the following story, reported several
years ago, in the Seattle Post-Intelligencer say about the charitable
nature of our society?  
 
http://seattlepi.nwsource.com/local/36928_jump29.shtml
 
I also am interested in understanding what being an "overly enthusiastic
cheerleader for the red white and blue" has to do with a
characterization of another society as "intolerant".  This appears to
equate patriotism with a sense of moral-cultural superiority.  
 
On a lighter note, to all the Texas-Tech fans in the family, there was a
great ball game on Saturday that I hope you didn't miss.
 
Love,
 
Owen 
-----Original Message-----
From: owen-bounces@owenconnections.com
[mailto:owen-bounces@owenconnections.com] On Behalf Of Owen, Dan
Sent: Monday, February 09, 2004 7:40 AM
To: 'owen@owenconnections.com'
Subject: RE: [owen] idle speculation
 
Lawrence,
 
I think folks will draw their own conclusions from the incident on Mt.
Elbra.  I do not think Russians are born morally inferior to Americans
but I do believe that being raised in that country has spawn people that
are generally less charitable than others.  I'm not sure if it is their
communist heritage, chronic shortages, cold winters or those big furry
hats they wear.  Seems to be a lot of hatred over their and little
tolerance for differences.  Last time I checked we still have forces in
Kosovo.  I realize we have our fair share of hatred and intolerance in
our country but no where to the degree in Eastern Europe.  Could be I am
xenophobic and an overly enthusiastic cheerleader for the red white and
blue. 
 
I find it curious you found a way to pull President Bush into this
discussion.  Seems to me we did provide support to Hussein in the early
80's.  The common enemy then was Iran. (remember the hostage crisis)
Hussein had a choice then to lead Iraq to greatness or turn on his own
people and enrich himself at their expense.  It is very easy to be a
Monday morning quarterback.  President Reagan is celebrating his 92nd
birthday, was his decision to help Iraq in the early 80's evil?  I doubt
very seriously we would have helped Hussein then if we had known what we
know now.  Also I doubt President Bush would have invaded Iraq if we had
known Hussein did not have WMD's.  There seems to be evidence indicating
that Hussein thought he had WMD's.  We will probably never know for sure
but the environment he created produced a society of mistrust,
dishonesty and evil.  I believe you reap what you sew and the Hussein
heritage will leave a stain on that society for generations to come.
Kind of like Russia.     
 
Questionable associations with potentially evil nations is nothing new.
The same thing is going on right now with our Pakistan alliance.  It may
prove to be a brilliant strategy or a huge mistake.  I think you would
agree no person or nation is all good or all evil.  You "makes" a
decision and you "takes" your chances.  No doubt there will be plenty to
criticize in the years to come.  I bet if you ask the Indian government
what they think about our alliance with Pakistan the axis of evil thing
would come up.  At least they admitted to selling nuclear technology.
Would that have happened before we declared our war on terrorism?  At
least we know now who they helped into the nuclear club.  Is it better
to know who to fear or is it better to be blissfully ignorant?  As
always there are more questions than answers.  
 
It is going to be in the mid-30's today.  First time we will have been
above freezing in four weeks.  That is something Howard Dean can really
scream about.
 
Love you all Dan O..............  
 
  
 
       
 
  
-----Original Message-----
From: owen-bounces@owenconnections.com
[mailto:owen-bounces@owenconnections.com]On Behalf Of lawrence
Sent: Monday, February 09, 2004 9:30 AM
To: owen@owenconnections.com
Subject: [owen] idle speculation
Thank you, Dan, for the story about the kind Americans and the mean 
Russians.  Should we conclude that Americans are morally superior to 
Russians?    Or that in some specific circumstances a couple of
Americans
behaved a good deal better than some Russians.  
 
If Bush had been president of  Outer Beaconland in the 1980s, and 
watched the United States supply aid, chemical equipment, military
equipment and moral support to Saddam Hussein, would he have 
called the United States part of the axis of evil?
 
Cheers -
Lawrence
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From klowen at hsnp.com  Tue Feb 10 10:08:40 2004
From: klowen at hsnp.com (lawrence)
Date: Thu Mar 24 11:50:12 2005
Subject: [owen] discord
Message-ID: <001101c3efe7$c4cf2720$9989fea9@oemcomputer>

Dan and Owen --
You boys do us all a big favor by dancing your congenial discord
right out in front of us all.  Thank you both!

Dan, I understand your hyperbole when you credit Reagan with
bringing down the mighty Russian bear.  Please.  From Truman on,
every American administration carried on the cold war and successfully
contained the Soviets.  Reagan carried on and the big bad bear
collapsed.  The CIA got it all wrong on that one too.  They kept peddling
the whopper that the Soviet Union was a global economic machine.
Maybe the Soviets did themselves in when they invaded Afghanistan.  
A big old powerful military machine should have been able to whip
up on little old Afghanistan.  You bet.

Cheers --
Lawrence
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From Dowen at wcvt.com  Tue Feb 10 08:03:08 2004
From: Dowen at wcvt.com (Owen, Dan)
Date: Thu Mar 24 11:50:12 2005
Subject: [owen] idle speculation
Message-ID: <3367C8BA324FD311AD06009027514849015F3D9D@tnet.wcvt.com>

Owen, 
Thanks for your sharing your thoughts.  I agree with you that the
entitlement mentality is a major factor in holding the Eastern Europeans
back.   Germany is still suffering financially from their agreement to merge
with East Germany.  The notion that citizens can suckle at the government
nipple is what ultimately brought down their communist government and is
what we need to be careful of in this country.  A large number of Americans
want expanded government programs such as: retirement (social security),
government health care, government pharmaceuticals, government child care
and the list goes on and on.  Listen to the Democratic Presidential
candidates and they pander to this line of thinking.  Bush's tax cut didn't
help the common man only big business, the Medicare program wasn't good
enough, the jobless recovery is bad for us,  and that list goes on and on.
Why are the manufacturing jobs leaving this country?  Because the work can
be done for far less else where.  If we were to ask the worker in China if
he is being exploited because of his lower wage in comparison to his counter
part in America he would laugh and say are you kidding, I have it so much
better now than before.  The majority of Americans want the best deal they
can get and will continue to purchase products with little regard as to
where the product was produced.  These same folks will then turn around and
demand more benefits from their government.  President Bush and the
Republicans have been pandering to this mind set also.  He has driven the
deficit through the roof by approving increased Medicare benefits for
example.  What we need in this country is a return to personal
responsibility.  It seems to me we refuse to learn the lessons from
countries who make their citizens overly dependant upon the government.  I
am off to a conference for the next three days but I appreciate the
opportunity to express my opinion.
Love you all Dan O................            
-----Original Message-----
From: owen-bounces@owenconnections.com
[mailto:owen-bounces@owenconnections.com]On Behalf Of Owen and Zuzana Newman
Sent: Monday, February 09, 2004 10:00 PM
To: owen@owenconnections.com
Subject: RE: [owen] idle speculation


 
 
 
            
Owen,
 
Let me get this straight:
 
1) China shouldn't be compared with Russia because they had (1945 thru 1989)
a more open communist society.
 
            China's transition to a market economy cannot be compared with
the Eastern Europe experience because of the context they have occurred in.
China's communist government began making the transition to a market economy
in 1978.  The transition has been heavily regulated by the government, and
has taken 26 years to develop.  China also refused to accompany economic
transition with social or political change.  The Chinese people do not enjoy
many of the freedoms we expect from modern democracies.  Much of China's
economic success stems directly from manufacturing, the products in WalMart,
are manufactured in conditions that would not be tolerated elsewhere in the
world.  In fact WalMart is currently being criticized for this very thing:
http://www.forbes.com/home_asia/newswire/2004/02/09/rtr1252821.html
<http://www.forbes.com/home_asia/newswire/2004/02/09/rtr1252821.html>  .  In
contrast, economic transition in Eastern Europe occurred simultaneously with
political and social transformation.  Eastern Europe began making the
transition to market economies in 1989, and in light of past government
abuses was unable to make a more gradual transition.  The countries lacked
both the fiscal as well as educational capital required to successfully
operate within the global market.  Legal systems were not in place to stem
abuses from within, as well as abroad.  Under the same circumstances, I
believe China would have experienced similar difficulties.  
            Most importantly for purposes of this conversation, I do not
believe it can be stated that China succeeded because the Chinese people are
"better behaved" and the Europeans have struggled due to their "poor
behavior".
 
2)  Poor behavior is both learned and inherited. 
 
3) Eastern Europeans have foreign opportunists to blame for their poor
recovery.
 
            I do not believe that I laid all the blame for Eastern Europe's
poor recovery at the feet of foreign opportunists.  In fact, the point I
hoped to make was that much of the blame lies in the circumstances
surrounding the transition.  As I already mentioned, transitioning economies
often lack the sufficient fiscal and educational capital to succeed.  For
over 40 years, the Eastern European populous received minimal wages, were
banned from owning private property, and received no education in free
market economics.  Over the last 14 years, I believe that Eastern European
governments have done an admirable (not exceptional) job putting their
economies in the position they are in today.  Every year that I return to
Czech I see marked improvement in their standard of living.  My observation
regarding foreign opportunists was only that they exacerbated the
difficulties. 
 
Please pardon my crass observation but it sounds to me that you feel the
Eastern European peoples have little or no responsibly for their plight.
Please correct me if I incorrectly understand your position.  
 
I hope that I have clarified my position on this point.  However, in the
interests of removing all doubt, Eastern Europeans do bear much of the
responsibility for the slow transition.  In addition to the difficulties
created by the context in which Eastern Europe's transition occurred, many
transitioning countries lack a sense of identity and consequently suffer
from a victim mentality and false sense of entitlement.  In Czech, the
people had to create a new government from scratch.  They were bombarded by
Western countries each with their own sense of what type of government the
Czechs should adopt, and how to accomplish it.  (In fact Frank Zappa served
as one of Czech's primary consultants to the adoption of their new
constitution)  Were they to follow an American model, French, German, Swiss?
They were understandably leery of government regulation, but afraid to
discard the social welfare system they enjoyed under communism.  Without a
profound sense of who they are as a nation, the political consensus
necessary to enact needed reforms is difficult to attain.
Many Czechs received their sole exposure to American culture from Baywatch,
and expected that once the communists were gone, they too could live on a
beach with Pamela Anderson.  Economic transition however is not that easy,
and a strong government, able to enact unpopular reforms is required. (The
Chinese government, not subject to an electorate would qualify) Obviously
this did not happen.
Unemployment was and continues to remain high (in the town where my wife is
from, unemployment is close to 25%) further exacerbating the seeming lack of
identity and general malaise.  What has developed is a false sense of
entitlement.  Many in the younger generation believe that the government
owes them something and that rather than taking control over their own
destiny, they are victims, entitled to special treatment.   It is time that
Czechs stop feeling sorry for themselves, get out of the pubs and take
control over their lives.  
 
 
I think Eastern Europeans were victims of an oppressive communist state up
until they were set free.  (in large part by the actions of President
Reagan)
 
            While President Reagan's policy of sacrificing the American
economy for massive quantities of military hardware played some role in
creating economic conditions ripe for wide-spread dissent, I think that the
individuals who summoned the courage to take to the streets in defiance of
an oppressive regime would take offense at giving credit "in large part" to
President Reagan.
 
  But that was over twenty years ago.  
 
            14 years ago.  Please don't imply that I'm that old already :-)
 
The Chinese are still run by a quasi communist state and just look at them
go now.  Have you been to Wal Mart lately?  Seems everything is Chinese
made.  
 
            Please see the above link regarding Chinese products
manufactured for WalMart.
 
If poor behavior is both learned and inherited then it seems to me we all
have more than enough excuses to blame either our parents or our government.
Perhaps we should prosecute parents for the bad deeds of their children if
the blame for crimes is somehow genetic.
 
            That is not what I said, or implied.  "You ask me whether I
believe "poor behavior" is learned or genetic.  I believe the answer is
both.  I accept much of the scientific research indicating that at the very
least, we are genetically predisposed to certain behaviors.  This is not an
excuse for poor behavior.  Learned behavior, I believe, is superimposed over
this genetic predisposition, it may exacerbate it, or it may alter it,
individuals are still accountable for their own actions and in control of
their own destinies."  
 
Thanks for your kind invitation to participate in discord.  I do so love to
debate.
 
            Ditto...
 
Love you all Dan O...............
 
Owen      
-----Original Message-----
From: owen-bounces@owenconnections.com
[mailto:owen-bounces@owenconnections.com]On Behalf Of Owen and Zuzana Newman
Sent: Monday, February 09, 2004 1:01 PM
To: owen@owenconnections.com
Subject: RE: [owen] idle speculation
Dan,
 
I hope to never see the day where the world is one giant Coca-Cola
commercial, where we all hold hands singing "I wish to teach the world to
sing in perfect harmony".  Harmony may be nice to listen to, but it rarely
is very interesting.  The great composers understood this, Beethoven,
Mahler, Rachmaninov, Stravinski, all used discord to captivate and intrigue.
Discord is what makes life interesting.  It is in this vein, that I hope you
do not view the expression of your opinion, no matter how provocative, as a
"mistake".  It appears to me that to be more reserved in the future, is to
become a part of the great Coca-Cola commercial.  
 
As for Russia and other Eastern European countries' difficulties in
adjusting to a market economy, I am not convinced that China is an
appropriate standard of comparison.  China's government, unlike the Soviet
regime between 1945 and 1989, successfully participates in the global
economy, however this does not translate into a democratic style market
economy.  Within the Chinese borders, I believe that we would see a much
different scenario.  
 
You suggest that many of the problems experienced in transitioning to a
market economy stem from the society the people live in.  I agree.  Adapting
to a democratic politic and transition to a market economy, when viewed
through the eyes of someone who grew up in a communist society is difficult
at best.  (Here is a link to a post my wife made in 2002 describing her
experiences in communist Czech:
http://archives.owenconnections.com/2002-10/msg00009.html
<http://archives.owenconnections.com/2002-10/msg00009.html>  )  However, I
do not equate the difficulties experienced throughout Eastern Europe to
"poor behavior".  I have traveled extensively in the Czech Republic, have
studied at Charles University in Prague, and am honored to be a member of a
Czech family, and throughout these experiences I have not seen the type of
behavior you describe.  Instead, I see people with a keen sense of
entrepreneurial spirit, open hearts, and an unrivaled appreciation for the
good things in life.  Economically, this region of the world has had a
difficult transition, they have not learned to maximize natural resources,
or participate as fully in a global economy as other countries, but this is
not the product of moral or ethical defect (learned or genetic).
Additionally, opportunistic behavior by foreign interests looking to make a
quick buck exploiting low wages and a favorable exchange rate, have served
only to the detriment of a successful transition.
 
You ask me whether I believe "poor behavior" is learned or genetic.  I
believe the answer is both.  I accept much of the scientific research
indicating that at the very least, we are genetically predisposed to certain
behaviors.  This is not an excuse for poor behavior.  Learned behavior, I
believe, is superimposed over this genetic predisposition, it may exacerbate
it, or it may alter it, individuals are still accountable for their own
actions and in control of their own destinies.  
 
Keep up the beautiful discord,
Owen  
 
 
 
-----Original Message-----
From: owen-bounces@owenconnections.com
[mailto:owen-bounces@owenconnections.com] On Behalf Of Owen, Dan
Sent: Monday, February 09, 2004 9:52 AM
To: 'owen@owenconnections.com'
Subject: RE: [owen] idle speculation
 
Owen,
 
Oops, I made the  mistake of sharing my opinion.  I will try to be more
reserved in the future.  No doubt my opinion is half baked and probably not
very open minded.  I base my opinion on what I have been able to discern
from news reports about the former Soviet Union.  Also the great villains in
today's movies portraying evil Russian Mafia types.  Never the less Russia
seems to have had a number of problems adjusting to a market economy, unlike
China for example.  Why does a country with so many natural resources have
such poor living conditions?  I submit it may have something to do with the
society the people live in.  Not a politically correct opinion but it it the
one I have.  I have not had the opportunity to visit that part of the world
but I would sure like to some day.  I realize my opinion goes against the
notion that the world is one giant Coca-Cola commercial where we all hold
hands and sing "I wish to teach the world to sing in perfect harmony".   I
do believe that over time as the Russian standard of living rises we will
see a change.  I believe poor behavior is learned and not genetic.  What do
you think?
 
Dan O.........................     
-----Original Message-----
From: owen-bounces@owenconnections.com
[mailto:owen-bounces@owenconnections.com]On Behalf Of Owen and Zuzana Newman
Sent: Monday, February 09, 2004 9:40 AM
To: owen@owenconnections.com
Subject: RE: [owen] idle speculation
Dan,
 
I am interested in understanding the basis for your conclusion that Russians
are less charitable than others or that Eastern Europeans harbor "a lot of
hatred ... and little tolerance for differences".  Are your conclusions
based solely on the incident you described on Mt. Elbra, or do you believe
that your characterizations apply to the society in general?  Your comments
that it may be the result of "communist heritage, chronic shortages, cold
winters or those big furry hats they wear", while at least partially in
jest, would indicate that you believe the characterization applies to the
society in general.  If you base your characterizations upon other evidence,
I'd be interested to hear it.  
 
I find it difficult to characterize a country and its people on the
unfortunate actions of a few individuals and upon an isolated incident such
as that on Mt. Elbra.  You acknowledge that "we have our fair share of
hatred and intolerance in our country", but contrast that as "no where to
the degree in Eastern Europe".  This appears to be inconsistent with a
conclusion regarding the nature of Eastern Europeans based upon a single
incident.  If the Mt. Elbra story reflects on Eastern European society in
general, what does the following story, reported several years ago, in the
Seattle Post-Intelligencer say about the charitable nature of our society?  
 
http://seattlepi.nwsource.com/local/36928_jump29.shtml
<http://seattlepi.nwsource.com/local/36928_jump29.shtml> 
 
I also am interested in understanding what being an "overly enthusiastic
cheerleader for the red white and blue" has to do with a characterization of
another society as "intolerant".  This appears to equate patriotism with a
sense of moral-cultural superiority.  
 
On a lighter note, to all the Texas-Tech fans in the family, there was a
great ball game on Saturday that I hope you didn't miss.
 
Love,
 
Owen 
-----Original Message-----
From: owen-bounces@owenconnections.com
[mailto:owen-bounces@owenconnections.com] On Behalf Of Owen, Dan
Sent: Monday, February 09, 2004 7:40 AM
To: 'owen@owenconnections.com'
Subject: RE: [owen] idle speculation
 
Lawrence,
 
I think folks will draw their own conclusions from the incident on Mt.
Elbra.  I do not think Russians are born morally inferior to Americans but I
do believe that being raised in that country has spawn people that are
generally less charitable than others.  I'm not sure if it is their
communist heritage, chronic shortages, cold winters or those big furry hats
they wear.  Seems to be a lot of hatred over their and little tolerance for
differences.  Last time I checked we still have forces in Kosovo.  I realize
we have our fair share of hatred and intolerance in our country but no where
to the degree in Eastern Europe.  Could be I am xenophobic and an overly
enthusiastic cheerleader for the red white and blue. 
 
I find it curious you found a way to pull President Bush into this
discussion.  Seems to me we did provide support to Hussein in the early
80's.  The common enemy then was Iran. (remember the hostage crisis)
Hussein had a choice then to lead Iraq to greatness or turn on his own
people and enrich himself at their expense.  It is very easy to be a Monday
morning quarterback.  President Reagan is celebrating his 92nd birthday, was
his decision to help Iraq in the early 80's evil?  I doubt very seriously we
would have helped Hussein then if we had known what we know now.  Also I
doubt President Bush would have invaded Iraq if we had known Hussein did not
have WMD's.  There seems to be evidence indicating that Hussein thought he
had WMD's.  We will probably never know for sure but the environment he
created produced a society of mistrust, dishonesty and evil.  I believe you
reap what you sew and the Hussein heritage will leave a stain on that
society for generations to come.  Kind of like Russia.     
 
Questionable associations with potentially evil nations is nothing new.  The
same thing is going on right now with our Pakistan alliance.  It may prove
to be a brilliant strategy or a huge mistake.  I think you would agree no
person or nation is all good or all evil.  You "makes" a decision and you
"takes" your chances.  No doubt there will be plenty to criticize in the
years to come.  I bet if you ask the Indian government what they think about
our alliance with Pakistan the axis of evil thing would come up.  At least
they admitted to selling nuclear technology.  Would that have happened
before we declared our war on terrorism?  At least we know now who they
helped into the nuclear club.  Is it better to know who to fear or is it
better to be blissfully ignorant?  As always there are more questions than
answers.  
 
It is going to be in the mid-30's today.  First time we will have been above
freezing in four weeks.  That is something Howard Dean can really scream
about.
 
Love you all Dan O..............  
 
  
 
       
 
  
-----Original Message-----
From: owen-bounces@owenconnections.com
[mailto:owen-bounces@owenconnections.com]On Behalf Of lawrence
Sent: Monday, February 09, 2004 9:30 AM
To: owen@owenconnections.com
Subject: [owen] idle speculation
Thank you, Dan, for the story about the kind Americans and the mean 
Russians.  Should we conclude that Americans are morally superior to 
Russians?    Or that in some specific circumstances a couple of Americans
behaved a good deal better than some Russians.  
 
If Bush had been president of  Outer Beaconland in the 1980s, and 
watched the United States supply aid, chemical equipment, military
equipment and moral support to Saddam Hussein, would he have 
called the United States part of the axis of evil?
 
Cheers -
Lawrence
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From Gayleowen at aol.com  Tue Feb 10 20:08:37 2004
From: Gayleowen at aol.com (Gayleowen@aol.com)
Date: Thu Mar 24 11:50:12 2005
Subject: [owen] Gwynne
Message-ID: <45.4ee0684.2d5ada95@aol.com>

Hello to all,

Gwynne will be going home tomorrow.  He was hoping for today but his doctor 
wanted the oncologist to see Gwynne before he checks out and see if he 
recommends any follow up treatment.  Also, the doctor was doing the paperwork to set 
up home healthcare today. 

Gwynne will be on oxygen at home for about a month.   He sounds great on the 
phone and is anxious to get home.

Gayle
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From WWeiler884 at aol.com  Tue Feb 10 21:38:02 2004
From: WWeiler884 at aol.com (WWeiler884@aol.com)
Date: Thu Mar 24 11:50:12 2005
Subject: [owen] Gwynne
Message-ID: <10.3b7fbeef.2d5aef8a@aol.com>

Dear Gayle and Roger,

First, thank you for keeping all of us abreast of your dad's operation and 
recovery. Know that both he and Ruth will be glad to back in their home.

Mainly, I want to thank and applaud both of you for your loving task as 
caregivers. I know how difficult that can be, and I want you to know how much your 
hard work is appreciated. (Sorry, that's a rather myopic paragraph.)

Prayers and thoughts continue to flow to all of you.
Martha Tipps Weiler
First cousin #48
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From klowen at hsnp.com  Wed Feb 11 09:36:25 2004
From: klowen at hsnp.com (lawrence)
Date: Thu Mar 24 11:50:17 2005
Subject: [owen] good stuff
Message-ID: <000d01c3f0ac$7a6e5c80$9989fea9@oemcomputer>

Welcome back home Gwynne!  Enjoy looking out at the lake rather
than at hospital walls! 

Yesterday, Bobby, Bettye, Kathleen, and I drove over to Little Rock.
We spent a satisfying hour in the Arkansas Art Center looking at pottery,
glass, weaving, wooden objects --  amazing and beautiful works in an 
exhibit of craft by American craftswomen and men.   Then we drove over 
to the site where President Clinton's library is rising.  Then we crossed the
Arkansas River and looked back at the Clinton Library,  which will open
in November.  It's going to be a beautiful place.

Then we stopped in for a buffet lunch at the Star of India.  None of us pigged
out on the delicious curries, tandoori chicken, spinach and yogurt, 
okra concoction, nan, and  rice pudding.  The food was scrumptious!
Several adult Indian men and women attended  the customers, all very
friendly.  The main man, a glad-handing greeter and server, wore a large
necktie made up mostly of the American flag.  Bobby tried to buy the necktie
from the man, who said, "Oh no.  My America," and kissed his necktie.

It was a wonderful day!

Cheers --
Lawrence
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From SAOwen at TarrantCounty.com  Wed Feb 11 10:14:24 2004
From: SAOwen at TarrantCounty.com (SAOwen@TarrantCounty.com)
Date: Thu Mar 24 11:50:17 2005
Subject: [owen] good stuff
Message-ID: <E50788FA14C4D511906100065B04E8FC011E072A@itcrex004.tarrantcounty.com>

A paragraph from Halliburton's 2002 Annual Report:
 
We expect growth opportunities to exist for additional security and defense
support to government agencies in the United States and other countries.
Demand for these services is expected to grow as a result of the armed
conflict in the Middle East and as governmental agencies seek to control
costs and promote efficiencies by outsourcing these functions. We also
expect growth due to new demands created by increased efforts to combat
terrorism and enhance homeland security.
 
War good.  Peace bad.
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From klowen at hsnp.com  Wed Feb 11 13:46:03 2004
From: klowen at hsnp.com (lawrence)
Date: Thu Mar 24 11:50:17 2005
Subject: [owen] the many pleasures of golf
Message-ID: <000d01c3f0cf$4d858b80$9989fea9@oemcomputer>


Golfers --

This is a request.  The deadline nears for a golf column.
Plese write me a sentence or three about the pleasures 
of golf.  What especially satisfies as you play the wonderful game?
Wax poetic if so moved.

Thank you --
Lawrence
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From kmcassels at sbcw-law.com  Wed Feb 11 13:17:33 2004
From: kmcassels at sbcw-law.com (Kelly Mack Cassels)
Date: Thu Mar 24 11:50:18 2005
Subject: [owen] the many pleasures of golf
In-Reply-To: <000d01c3f0cf$4d858b80$9989fea9@oemcomputer>
Message-ID: <003c01c3f0cb$5306fca0$c793fea9@domain1>

I golf because there is something amazing to me about going through all
the gyrations of the swing, and with such a small surface, striking such
a small object, and carrying it so far.  That sweet swing that moves the
ball straight to the target, at the right distance, just makes me grin
in ways that few other things can.  It is the glory of achievement and
the opportunity to achieve anywhere from 78 to 98 times in any given
game in the prettiest place in town that brings me to the course.
 
Thanks, that was a nice break from the glories of the New Mexico Unfair
Trade Practices Act.  I feel much better.
 
Peace,
 
Kelly
 
-----Original Message-----
From: owen-bounces@owenconnections.com
[mailto:owen-bounces@owenconnections.com] On Behalf Of lawrence
Sent: Wednesday, February 11, 2004 11:46 AM
To: owen@owenconnections.com
Subject: [owen] the many pleasures of golf
 
 
Golfers --
 
This is a request.  The deadline nears for a golf column.
Plese write me a sentence or three about the pleasures 
of golf.  What especially satisfies as you play the wonderful game?
Wax poetic if so moved.
 
Thank you --
Lawrence

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From jcassels_2000 at hotmail.com  Wed Feb 11 15:19:07 2004
From: jcassels_2000 at hotmail.com (Jeff Cassels)
Date: Thu Mar 24 11:50:18 2005
Subject: [owen] the many pleasures of golf
Message-ID: <BAY10-F125cpb0eVZzc00021375@hotmail.com>

I certainly don't get to play enough, but I guess we would all say that.

I love golf because it gets me out of the office/house and onto a beautiful 
course.  (Aren't they all beautiful?).  It allows me to spend time with my 
boys or friends/family.  And I always hit one or two shots that make me feel 
like I can actually play the game and keeps me coming back for more.

Jeff

_________________________________________________________________
Keep up with high-tech trends here at "Hook'd on Technology." 
http://special.msn.com/msnbc/hookedontech.armx


From sowen at telepath.com  Wed Feb 11 18:48:50 2004
From: sowen at telepath.com (Susan Owen)
Date: Thu Mar 24 11:50:18 2005
Subject: [owen] ugly shoes
Message-ID: <410-220042311234850250@telepath.com>

Ugly Shoes
Golf is a game that is enjoyed by many people of different beliefs and different social backgrounds.
As people change so should the game of golf. The game of golf has not made many changes. You can now get a golf ball to suit your thoughts, if your thoughts include white, yellow or pink. Weapons of defense have moved us from wood to metal, graphite and titanium.
As a child we learned to color within the lines, as a teenager we did not like the lines our family dictated and spent many hours defining and moving the lines. As a golfer you see the lines as the fairway and try to stay within the lines. The climate of the game is affected by how often you go outside the lines, or how well you get back in. 
I remember as a child of the female class not liking it when my dad or uncles would wear their dress shoes with white socks and shorts. The textile industry was able to persuade these men that plaid shorts looked good. The shoe industry moved men from dress shoes to a more casual approach by marketing white leather tennis shoes, we like our men in shorts as long as they have on tennis shoes. White socks are still ok. The golf industry has not kept up with the changes society goes through. Ugly shoes with white socks, plaid shorts remain very acceptable once on a golf course. You can buy these items there if you cannot find them elsewhere.
Golf is a game that allows us to carry a big stick. Golfers are honest in their estimates of the remaining distance to the pin. Their estimates of how far they drove off the tee do not need to be challenged, especially when their ball always lies behind yours.
Some things never change. Mens legs still look good, inspite of the plaid shorts and ugly shoes.
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From SAOwen at TarrantCounty.com  Thu Feb 12 16:16:16 2004
From: SAOwen at TarrantCounty.com (SAOwen@TarrantCounty.com)
Date: Thu Mar 24 11:50:18 2005
Subject: [owen] the many pleasures of golf
Message-ID: <E50788FA14C4D511906100065B04E8FC011E072D@itcrex004.tarrantcounty.com>

4 hours of psychotherapy in a shrink's office:  $400-600
4 hours of psychotherapy with Dr. Titleist:  $15-60
 
You do the math.
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From Dowen at wcvt.com  Thu Feb 12 16:27:05 2004
From: Dowen at wcvt.com (Owen, Dan)
Date: Thu Mar 24 11:50:18 2005
Subject: [owen] the many pleasures of golf
Message-ID: <3367C8BA324FD311AD06009027514849015F3D9F@tnet.wcvt.com>

Lawrence,
 
Golf is the only endeavor I know of where your talent, abilities, honesty,
attitude, demeanor, and true nature are absolutely naked for your colleagues
to see.  Unlike our work a day lives is impossible to hide your true self on
the golf course or to blame others for your failures.  The game is honest
and true.  It exposes us for who we really are.  I like that.
 
It is also one of the few places in life where you can stand alone and take
full credit for that one perfect drive, approach shot or putt.  A hundred
poor shots are instantly forgotten with the satisfaction of that one solid
swing.  From the outside looking in it is a silly, time consuming thing with
little or no redeeming value.  But from the inside it is one of the most
gratifying things a person can do.  I absolutely love it and I feel defined
by it.
 
Dan O.....

-----Original Message-----
From: owen-bounces@owenconnections.com
[mailto:owen-bounces@owenconnections.com]On Behalf Of lawrence
Sent: Wednesday, February 11, 2004 1:46 PM
To: owen@owenconnections.com
Subject: [owen] the many pleasures of golf


 
Golfers --
 
This is a request.  The deadline nears for a golf column.
Plese write me a sentence or three about the pleasures 
of golf.  What especially satisfies as you play the wonderful game?
Wax poetic if so moved.
 
Thank you --
Lawrence

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From the_ahs at hometownsolutions.net  Thu Feb 12 16:46:29 2004
From: the_ahs at hometownsolutions.net (Arne Kildegaard)
Date: Thu Mar 24 11:50:18 2005
Subject: [owen] the many pleasures of golf
In-Reply-To: <E50788FA14C4D511906100065B04E8FC011E072D@itcrex004.tarrantcounty.com>
References: <E50788FA14C4D511906100065B04E8FC011E072D@itcrex004.tarrantcounty.com>
Message-ID: <402BF435.20301@hometownsolutions.net>

For a long time I thought Titleist was pronounced Tit - lyst--which 
strikes me as a pretty darn good name for a psychotherapist!

SAOwen@TarrantCounty.com wrote:

> 4 hours of psychotherapy in a shrink's office:  $400-600
> 4 hours of psychotherapy with Dr. Titleist:  $15-60
>  
> You do the math.
>
>------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
>_______________________________________________
>Owen mailing list
>Owen@owenconnections.com
>https://my.binhost.com/lists/listinfo/owen
>Full archives at: http://archives.binhost.com/~owen
>  
>


From kmcassels at sbcw-law.com  Thu Feb 12 17:31:19 2004
From: kmcassels at sbcw-law.com (Kelly Mack Cassels)
Date: Thu Mar 24 11:50:18 2005
Subject: [owen] the many pleasures of golf
In-Reply-To: <E50788FA14C4D511906100065B04E8FC011E072D@itcrex004.tarrantcounty.com>
Message-ID: <006601c3f1b7$f0bf8ba0$c793fea9@domain1>

Very good.
 
-----Original Message-----
From: owen-bounces@owenconnections.com
[mailto:owen-bounces@owenconnections.com] On Behalf Of
SAOwen@TarrantCounty.com
Sent: Thursday, February 12, 2004 2:16 PM
To: owen@owenconnections.com
Subject: RE: [owen] the many pleasures of golf
 
4 hours of psychotherapy in a shrink's office:  $400-600
4 hours of psychotherapy with Dr. Titleist:  $15-60
 
You do the math.

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From janandean.jd at verizon.net  Thu Feb 12 20:20:56 2004
From: janandean.jd at verizon.net (janomanning)
Date: Thu Mar 24 11:50:18 2005
Subject: [owen] Why  I Love Golf
Message-ID: <005701c3f1cf$a22b5920$5b1a4104@home>

     I believe that golf is like the chase of a woman. When a man hunts for a mate 
the chase is exhilarating we become single minded for we wish to win the prize. Then 
finally we either win the prize and become husbands or we lose the round and 
continue the hunt.  Golf is a constant hunt for that perfect round or perfect hole
or perfect shot every round is a new hunt the exhilarating experience of a smooth
swing the impact of the sweet spot then to watch the flight of the shoot with the 
world view in the background as the ball lands and rolls up to the cup and then
it rolls in. I don't know how to explain how it feels but I always want to do it again.
   Dean O.
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From gmb42 at yahoo.com  Thu Feb 12 22:03:47 2004
From: gmb42 at yahoo.com (Nathaniel Owen)
Date: Thu Mar 24 11:50:18 2005
Subject: [owen] the many pleasures of golf
In-Reply-To: <000d01c3f0cf$4d858b80$9989fea9@oemcomputer>
Message-ID: <20040213030347.50573.qmail@web40703.mail.yahoo.com>

Lawrence,
 
This is a good question that I'm still in search of the answer for.  To be quite honest, most times I view golf as the other four letter sware word.  Golf so frustrates me that there are days when I just never want to play the game again.  But, something always stimulates me to come back to the game.  For me, that stimulation is the comradery that I have with my fellow golfing companions.  Golf is a game where you can show up by yourself to a golf course you've never been to and get paired with 1,2, or 3 others that are of totally different backrounds, race, religion.  And for those 4 hours, you are treated like a brother to those people.  The up and downs, ebbs and weaves of the game you share together.  It's an absolutely amazing game.  
 
Nate

lawrence <klowen@hsnp.com> wrote:
 
Golfers --
 
This is a request.  The deadline nears for a golf column.
Plese write me a sentence or three about the pleasures 
of golf.  What especially satisfies as you play the wonderful game?
Wax poetic if so moved.
 
Thank you --
Lawrence
_______________________________________________
Owen mailing list
Owen@owenconnections.com
https://my.binhost.com/lists/listinfo/owen
Full archives at: http://archives.binhost.com/~owen


---------------------------------
Do you Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Finance: Get your refund fast by filing online
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From Dowen at wcvt.com  Fri Feb 13 07:29:29 2004
From: Dowen at wcvt.com (Owen, Dan)
Date: Thu Mar 24 11:50:18 2005
Subject: [owen] discord
Message-ID: <3367C8BA324FD311AD06009027514849015F3DA3@tnet.wcvt.com>

Lawrence,
I agree that the cold war was waged for a long time but President Reagan
sealed the deal.  He called the USSR the "Evil Empire" and drove them out of
business through his deeds and actions.  By the way, President Johnson
declared a war on poverty during his administration.  How are we doing on
that war?  President Bush declared a war on terrorism and we seem to be
doing okay, no attacks on the homeland since 9-11-01.  I think I will
declare a war on double bogeys.  Want to sign up?
Love you all Dan O.............. 

-----Original Message-----
From: owen-bounces@owenconnections.com
[mailto:owen-bounces@owenconnections.com]On Behalf Of lawrence
Sent: Tuesday, February 10, 2004 10:09 AM
To: owen@owenconnections.com
Subject: [owen] discord


Dan and Owen --
You boys do us all a big favor by dancing your congenial discord
right out in front of us all.  Thank you both!
 
Dan, I understand your hyperbole when you credit Reagan with
bringing down the mighty Russian bear.  Please.  From Truman on,
every American administration carried on the cold war and successfully
contained the Soviets.  Reagan carried on and the big bad bear
collapsed.  The CIA got it all wrong on that one too.  They kept peddling
the whopper that the Soviet Union was a global economic machine.
Maybe the Soviets did themselves in when they invaded Afghanistan.  
A big old powerful military machine should have been able to whip
up on little old Afghanistan.  You bet.
 
Cheers --
Lawrence

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From klowen at hsnp.com  Fri Feb 13 09:30:53 2004
From: klowen at hsnp.com (lawrence)
Date: Thu Mar 24 11:50:18 2005
Subject: [owen] golf
Message-ID: <000d01c3f23d$fde55d60$9989fea9@oemcomputer>

Thank you golfers for writing out your thoughts
on why golf satisfies.  It's pretty obvious that
mystery and humor have a good deal to do with 
golf's popularity.

Thlanks!
Lawrence
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From homerowen at earthlink.net  Mon Feb 16 04:51:52 2004
From: homerowen at earthlink.net (Homer Owen)
Date: Thu Mar 24 11:50:18 2005
Subject: [owen] Fw: A very interesting list of quotes
Message-ID: <000b01c3f472$833762c0$a376fea9@compaq06>


I thought these quotes from our good democrat friends would make interesting reading today for the owen connection.
Homer 

"One way or the other, we are determined to deny Iraq the capacity to develop weapons of mass destruction and the missiles to deliver them. That is our bottom line." - President Clinton, Feb. 4, 1998 

"If Saddam rejects peace and we have to use force, our purpose is clear. We want to seriously diminish the threat posed by Iraq's weapons of mass destruction prog! ram." - President Clinton, Feb. 17, 1998 

"Iraq is a long way from [the USA], but what happens there matters a great deal here. For the risks that the leaders of a rogue state will use nuclear, chemical or biological weapons against us or our allies is the greatest security threat we face." - Madeline Albright, Feb 18, 1998 

"He will use those weapons of mass destruction again, as he has ten times since 1983." - Sandy Berger, Clinton National Security Adviser, Feb, 18, 1998 

"[W]e urge you, after consulting with Congress, and consistent with the U.S. Constitution and laws, to take necessary actions (including, if appropriate, air and missile strikes on suspect Iraqi sites) to respond effectively to the threat posed by Iraq's refusal to end its weapons of mass destruction programs." - Letter to President Clint! on, signed by Sens. Carl Levin, Tom Daschle, John Kerry, and others Oct. 9, 1998 

"Saddam Hussein has been engaged in the development of weapons of mass destruction technology which is a threat to countries in the region and he has made a mockery of the weapons inspection process." - Rep. Nancy Pelosi (D, CA), Dec. 16, 1998 

"Hussein has ... chosen to spend his money on building weapons of mass destruction and palaces for his cronies." - Madeline Albright, Clinton Secretary of State, Nov. 10, 1999 

"There is no doubt that Saddam Hussein has invigorated his weapons programs. Reports indicate that biological, chemical and nuclear programs continue apace and may be back to pre-Gulf War status. In addition, Saddam continues to redefine delivery systems and is doubtless using the cover of a licit missile program to develop longer-range missiles that will threaten the United States and our allies." - Letter to President Bush, Signed by Sen. Bob Graham (D, FL,) and others, December 5, 2001 

"We begin with the common belief that Saddam Hussein is a tyrant and a threat to the peace and stability of the region. He has ignored the mandated of the United Nations and is building weapons of mass destruction and the means of delivering them." - Sen. Carl Levin (D, MI), Sept. 19, 2002 

"We know that he has stored secret supplies of biological and chemical weapons throughout his country." - Al Gore, Sept. 23, 2002 

"Iraq's search for weapons of mass destruction has proven impossible to deter and we should assume that it will continue for as long as Saddam is in power." - Al Gore, Sept. 23, 2002 

"We have known for many years that Saddam Hussein is seeking and developing weapons of mass destruction." - Sen. Ted Kennedy (D, MA), Sept. 27, 2002 

"The last UN weapons inspectors left Iraq in October of 1998. We are confident that Saddam Hussein retains some stockpiles of chemical and biological weapons, and that he has since embarked on a crash course to build up his chemical and biological warfare capabilities. Intelligence reports indicate that he is seeking nuclear weapons..." - Sen. Robert Byrd (D, WV), Oct. 3, 2002 

"I will be voting to give the President of the United States the authority to use force-- if necessary-- to disarm Saddam Hussein because I believe that a deadly arsenal of weapons of mass destruction in his hands is a real and grave threat to our security." - Sen. John F. Kerry (D, MA), Oct. 9, 2002 

"There is unmistakable evidence that Sad! dam Hussein is working aggressively to d! evelop n uclear weapons and will likely have nuclear weapons wi thin the next five years ... We also should remember we have always underestimated the progress Saddam has made in development of weapons of mass destruction." - Sen. Jay Rockefeller (D, WV), Oct 10, 2002 

"He has systematically violated, over the course of the past 11 years, every significant UN resolution that has demanded that he disarm and destroy his chemical and biological weapons, and any nuclear capacity. This he has refused to do" Rep. - Henry Waxman (D, CA), Oct. 10, 2002 

"In the four years since the inspectors left, intelligence reports show that Saddam Hussein has worked to rebuild his chemical and biological weap ons stock, his missile delivery capability, and his nuclear program. He has also given aid, comfort, and sanctuary to terrorists, including al Qaeda members .. It is clear, however, that if left unchecked, Saddam Hussein will continue to increase his capacity to wage biological and chemical warfare, and will keep trying to develop nuclear weapons." - Se n. Hillary Clinton (D, NY), Oct 10, 2002 

"We are in possession of what I think to be compelling evidence that Saddam Hussein has, and has had for a number of years, a developing capacity for the production and storage of weapons of mass destruction." - Sen. Bob Graham (D, FL), Dec. 8, 2002 

"Without question, we need to disarm Saddam Hussein. He is a brutal, murderous dictator, leading an oppressive regime ... He! presents a particularly grievous threat because he is so consistently prone to miscalculation ... And now he is miscalculating America's response to his continued deceit and his consistent grasp for weapons of mass destruction ... So the threat of Saddam Hussein with weapons of mass destruction is real ..." - Sen. John F. Kerry (D, MA), Jan. 23. 2003 

SO NOW THE SAME DEMOCRATS SAY PRESIDENT BUSH LIED,! THAT THERE NEVER WERE ANY WEAPONS OF MASS DESTRUCTION AND HE TOOK US TO WAR FOR HIS OIL BUDDIES??? ; Boy! Talk about two-faced!--double-tongued

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From klowen at hsnp.com  Mon Feb 16 08:36:48 2004
From: klowen at hsnp.com (lawrence)
Date: Thu Mar 24 11:50:18 2005
Subject: [owen] WMDs
Message-ID: <001a01c3f491$eddb18a0$9989fea9@oemcomputer>

Homer --
Nice quotes.
Bush/Cheney/Powell/Rumsfeld told the American people that Iraq
posed a threat to America's security because Iraq had a vast arsenal
of WMDs.  No such arsenal existed.  There is a serious discrepancy between
the claim and the reality.
Happy Monday.
Lawrence
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From june at binhost.com  Mon Feb 16 19:01:34 2004
From: june at binhost.com (June Newman)
Date: Thu Mar 24 11:50:18 2005
Subject: [owen] Helen
Message-ID: <72B47604-60DC-11D8-A112-000A95C48E6C@binhost.com>

Mother came through surgery well and was moved into a regular room by 
late morning.   In spite of pain and considerable sedation her sense of 
humor is intact.  She complained that one arm was not through the 
sleeve of her gown and elaborated,  "I don't want to be like that Janet 
Jackson woman."   She will probably be in the hospital until the 
weekend.  The address is North Kansas City Hospital, Rm 823, 2800 Clay 
Edwards Dr., North Kansas City, Mo 64116.  The phone in her room is 
816-691-1823.  E-mail can be sent to her from this webpage:
https://www.nkch.org/visitors/email.shtml
  Ruth will stay with Mother tonight and Daddy will stay nearby at the 
Baymont Inn.
Thank you everyone for words of love and concern.
June 
  


From klowen at hsnp.com  Tue Feb 17 10:56:37 2004
From: klowen at hsnp.com (lawrence)
Date: Thu Mar 24 11:50:18 2005
Subject: [owen] canoe
Message-ID: <000a01c3f56e$b0b27940$9989fea9@oemcomputer>

Martha --
Love the canoe parable.  Had that lone
American canoeist been a member of the 
American Association of Canoe Paddlers, 
that grand old labor union, he could have taken 
the Japanese.

Lawrence
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From june at binhost.com  Wed Feb 18 11:21:58 2004
From: june at binhost.com (June Newman)
Date: Thu Mar 24 11:50:18 2005
Subject: [owen] Helen
Message-ID: <93675596-622E-11D8-A112-000A95C48E6C@binhost.com>

Mother had a pretty good night, but her blood pressure continues to be 
very unstable and after I left to come home this morning she was moved 
to another floor for closer monitoring.  Daddy asked to let everyone 
know they cannot reach him by phone until she is back in a regular 
room.  Love, June


From jowen at greenhills.net  Thu Feb 19 07:04:04 2004
From: jowen at greenhills.net (Jack)
Date: Thu Mar 24 11:50:18 2005
Subject: [owen] family
Message-ID: <200402191154.i1JBrs0D006917@ghlin4.greenhills.net>

         Good morning;    We are in the throes of a major heat wave, 
two days in a row above 50, wow!. I  want to thank you all for all the 
love and support you have shown us at this time. I am happy to 
report this morning that they seem to be getting Helens blood 
pressure under control.In the field of medicine it seems to me every 
thing good complicates something else that is also essential. 
When they put the pump in Helens stomach to hold down naseau,  
that she cannot take medication by mouth, and they have a hard 
time controlling her blood pressure without her usual pills. They put 
her to where she is hooked to a monitor that tells you  what the 
body is doing. There is not a private phone in there. We appreciate 
your calls so much , and will let you know  when she gets in a 
regular room. Other than her blood pressure she is doing real good. 
Hope to get the tube out of her nose today, and that is always a 
big help. 
   I love you all Jack


From saowen at tarrantcounty.com  Thu Feb 19 09:43:01 2004
From: saowen at tarrantcounty.com (saowen@tarrantcounty.com)
Date: Thu Mar 24 11:50:18 2005
Subject: [owen] Kerry vs. the chicken hawks
Message-ID: <200402191443.GAA09023@cobrand.salon.com>

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From klowen at hsnp.com  Thu Feb 19 11:45:52 2004
From: klowen at hsnp.com (lawrence)
Date: Thu Mar 24 11:50:18 2005
Subject: [owen] (no subject)
Message-ID: <001a01c3f708$b5e83940$9989fea9@oemcomputer>

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From klowen at hsnp.com  Thu Feb 19 11:51:28 2004
From: klowen at hsnp.com (lawrence)
Date: Thu Mar 24 11:50:18 2005
Subject: [owen] golf
Message-ID: <001b01c3f708$b83b5100$9989fea9@oemcomputer>

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From sharrison at cleanweb.net  Thu Feb 19 10:36:29 2004
From: sharrison at cleanweb.net (Harrison)
Date: Thu Mar 24 11:50:18 2005
Subject: [owen] family
In-Reply-To: <200402191154.i1JBrs0D006917@ghlin4.greenhills.net>
Message-ID: <KFEBKEGJOPJNDJFGGDLAGECOCCAA.sharrison@cleanweb.net>

Thank you for the update & the good reports are what we like.  love, brenda

-----Original Message-----
From: owen-bounces@owenconnections.com
[mailto:owen-bounces@owenconnections.com]On Behalf Of Jack
Sent: Thursday, February 19, 2004 6:04 AM
To: owen@owenconnections.com
Subject: [owen] family


         Good morning;    We are in the throes of a major heat wave, 
two days in a row above 50, wow!. I  want to thank you all for all the 
love and support you have shown us at this time. I am happy to 
report this morning that they seem to be getting Helens blood 
pressure under control.In the field of medicine it seems to me every 
thing good complicates something else that is also essential. 
When they put the pump in Helens stomach to hold down naseau,  
that she cannot take medication by mouth, and they have a hard 
time controlling her blood pressure without her usual pills. They put 
her to where she is hooked to a monitor that tells you  what the 
body is doing. There is not a private phone in there. We appreciate 
your calls so much , and will let you know  when she gets in a 
regular room. Other than her blood pressure she is doing real good. 
Hope to get the tube out of her nose today, and that is always a 
big help. 
   I love you all Jack

_______________________________________________
Owen mailing list
Owen@owenconnections.com
https://my.binhost.com/lists/listinfo/owen
Full archives at: http://archives.binhost.com/~owen

From jcassels_2000 at hotmail.com  Thu Feb 19 10:41:27 2004
From: jcassels_2000 at hotmail.com (Jeff Cassels)
Date: Thu Mar 24 11:50:19 2005
Subject: [owen] golf
Message-ID: <BAY10-F20agwiIqNBkh00001a47@hotmail.com>

Uncle Lawrence, I converted your file to RTF (Rich Text Format), which can 
be read by anyone on Windows.

_________________________________________________________________
Stay informed on Election 2004 and the race to Super Tuesday. 
http://special.msn.com/msn/election2004.armx
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From SAOwen at TarrantCounty.com  Thu Feb 19 12:03:45 2004
From: SAOwen at TarrantCounty.com (SAOwen@TarrantCounty.com)
Date: Thu Mar 24 11:50:19 2005
Subject: [owen] golf yucks
Message-ID: <E50788FA14C4D511906100065B04E8FC011E072F@itcrex004.tarrantcounty.com>

To celebrate 50 years of marriage, a couple booked a weekend at St. Andrews.
On the third tee, the husband said, "Darling, I have to confess something.
Twenty years ago I had a brief affair. It meant nothing. I hope that you can
forgive me."

His wife was hurt but said, "Dearest, those days are long gone. What we have
now is far more valuable. I forgive you."  They embraced and kissed.

On the seventeenth tee the wife said to her husband, "Darling, since we are
being honest with each other; I have something to tell you. Fifty-two years
ago I had a sex change operation, I was a man before we met."

The husband threw a fit! He cursed, threw his driver away, broke the rest of
his clubs one by one, tore at his clothes, screamed and ranted, "You liar,
you despicable cheat! How could you? I trusted you and you've been playing
off the ladies' tee all these years!"

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From Dowen at wcvt.com  Thu Feb 19 12:16:54 2004
From: Dowen at wcvt.com (Owen, Dan)
Date: Thu Mar 24 11:50:19 2005
Subject: [owen] golf yucks
Message-ID: <3367C8BA324FD311AD06009027514849015F3DCA@tnet.wcvt.com>

A golfer tees off and hits his ball into a clump of trees.  He finds the
ball and takes a mighty swing to get out and the ball hits a tree, bounces
back, hits him in the head and kills him.  As the dead golfer enters the
Pearly Gates St. Peter asks him if he is a good golfer and the man replies
"Got here in two didn't I ?"

-----Original Message-----
From: owen-bounces@owenconnections.com
[mailto:owen-bounces@owenconnections.com]On Behalf Of
SAOwen@TarrantCounty.com
Sent: Thursday, February 19, 2004 12:04 PM
To: owen@owenconnections.com
Subject: [owen] golf yucks



To celebrate 50 years of marriage, a couple booked a weekend at St. Andrews.
On the third tee, the husband said, "Darling, I have to confess something.
Twenty years ago I had a brief affair. It meant nothing. I hope that you can
forgive me."

His wife was hurt but said, "Dearest, those days are long gone. What we have
now is far more valuable. I forgive you."  They embraced and kissed.

On the seventeenth tee the wife said to her husband, "Darling, since we are
being honest with each other; I have something to tell you. Fifty-two years
ago I had a sex change operation, I was a man before we met."

The husband threw a fit! He cursed, threw his driver away, broke the rest of
his clubs one by one, tore at his clothes, screamed and ranted, "You liar,
you despicable cheat! How could you? I trusted you and you've been playing
off the ladies' tee all these years!"

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From kmcassels at sbcw-law.com  Fri Feb 20 09:48:45 2004
From: kmcassels at sbcw-law.com (Kelly Mack Cassels)
Date: Thu Mar 24 11:50:19 2005
Subject: [owen] Deficit of Decency in America
Message-ID: <001001c3f7c0$a5876040$c793fea9@domain1>

Another nut who actually believes there is black, and there is white,
there is wrong and there is right, and a God Who defined them all



..
 
 HYPERLINK
"http://miller.senate.gov/press/2004/02-12-04decency.html"http://miller.
senate.gov/press/2004/02-12-04decency.html

 Miller Delivers Floor Speech on 'Deficit of Decency' in America

 WASHINGTON - U.S. Senator Zell Miller (D-GA) today delivered the
following statement on the floor of the United States Senate addressing
several social  issues facing the country:

 "The Old Testament prophet Amos was a sheep herder who lived back in
the
Judean hills, away from the larger cities of Bethlehem and Jerusalem. 
Compared to the intellectual urbanites like Isaiah and Jeremiah, he was
just  an unsophisticated country hick.

 "But Amos had a unique grasp of political and social issues and his
poetic literary skill was among the best of all the prophets. That
familiar quote of Martin Luther King, Jr. about  'Justice will rush down
like waters and righteousness like a mighty stream'  are Amos's words.

 "Amos was the first to propose the concept of a universal God and not
just some tribal deity. He also wrote that God demanded moral purity,
not
rituals and sacrifices. This blunt speaking moral conscience of his time
warns in Chapter 8, verse 11 of The Book of Amos, as if he were speaking
to us today:

 That 'the days will come, sayeth the Lord God, that I will send a
famine
in the land. Not a famine of bread, nor a thirst for water, but of
hearing the word of the Lord.  'And they shall wander from sea to sea,
and from the north even to the east.  They shall run to and fro to seek
the word of the Lord, and shall not find it.'

 'A famine in the land'. Has anyone more accurately described the
situation  we face in America today? 'A famine of hearing the words of
the Lord.'

 "But some will say, Amos was just an Old Testament prophet - a minor
one
at  that - who lived 700 years before Christ. That is true, so how about
one of  the most influential historians of modern times?

 "Arnold Toynbee who wrote the acclaimed 12 volume A Study of History,
once declared, 'Of the 22 civilizations that have appeared in history,
19
of them collapsed when they reached the moral state America is in
today.'

 "Toynbee died in 1975, before seeing the worst that was yet to come.
Yes,  Arnold Toynbee saw the famine. The 'famine of hearing the words of
the Lord.

 ' Whether it is removing a display of the Ten Commandments from a
Courthouse or the Nativity Scene from a city square. Whether it is
eliminating prayer in schools or eliminating 'under God' in the Pledge
of
Allegiance. Whether  it is making a mockery of the sacred institution of
marriage between a man  and woman or, yes, telecasting around the world
made-in-the-USA filth masquerading as entertainment.

 "The Culture of Far Left America was displayed in a startling way
during
the  Super Bowl's now infamous half-time show. A show brought to us
courtesy of  Value-Les Moonves and the pagan temple of Viacom-Babylon.

 "I asked the question yesterday, how many of you have ever run over a
skunk with your car? I have many times and I can tell you, the stink
stays around  for a long time. You can take the car through a car wash
and it's still  there. So the scent of this event will long linger in
the
nostrils of America.

 "I'm not talking just about an exposed mammary gland with a pull-tab
 attached to it. Really no one should have been too surprised at that.
Wouldn't one expect a bumping, humping, trashy routine entitled 'I'm
going to get you naked' to end that way.

 "Does any responsible adult ever listen to the words of this rap-crap?
I'd  quote you some of it, but the Sergeant of Arms would throw me out
of
here,  as well he should. And then there was that prancing, dancing,
strutting,  rutting guy evidently suffering from jock itch because he
kept yelling and  grabbing his crotch. But then, maybe there's a crotch
grabbing culture I've been unaware of.

 "But as bad as all this was, the thing that yanked my chain the hardest
was  seeing that ignoramus with his pointed head stuck up through a hole
he had  cut in the flag of the United States of America, screaming about
having 'a  bottle of scotch and watching lots of crotch.' Think about
that.

 "This is the same flag that we pledge allegiance to. This is the flag
that  is draped over coffins of dead young uniformed warriors killed
while  protecting Kid Crock's bony butt. He should be tarred and
feathered, and  ridden out of this country on a rail. Talk about a good
reality show, there's one for you.

 "The desire and will of this Congress to meaningfully do anything about
any of these so-called social issues is non existent and embarrassingly 
disgraceful. The American people are waiting and growing impatient with
us.  They want something done.

 "I am pleased to be a co-sponsor of S.J. Res. 26 along with Senator
Allard and others, proposing an amendment to the Constitution of the
United States relating to marriage. And S.1558, the Liberties
Restoration
Act, which  declares religious liberty rights in several ways, including
the Pledge of  Allegiance and the display of the Ten Commandments. And
today I join Senator Shelby and others with the Constitution Restoration
Act of 2004 that limits the jurisdiction of federal courts in certain
ways.

 "In doing so, I stand shoulder to shoulder not only with my Senate
 co-sponsors and Chief Justice Roy Moore of Alabama but, more
importantly, with our Founding Fathers in the conception of religious
liberty and the terribly wrong direction our modern judiciary has taken
us in.

 "Everyone today seems to think that the U.S. Constitution expressly
provides for separation of church and state. Ask any ten people if
that's
not so. And  I'll bet you most of them will say 'Well, sure.' And some
will point out,  'it's in the First Amendment.'

 "Wrong!  Read it!  It says, 'Congress shall make no law respecting an
 establishment of religion or prohibiting the free exercise thereof.'
Where  is the word 'separate'? Where are the words 'church' or 'state.'


 "They are not there. Never have been. Never intended to be. Read the
Congressional Records during that four-month period in 1789 when the
amendment was being framed in Congress. Clearly their intent was to
prohibit a single denomination in exclusion of all others, whether it
was
Anglican or Catholic or some other.

 "I highly recommend a great book entitled Original Intent by David
Barton.  It really gets into how the actual members of Congress, who
drafted the First Amendment, expected basic Biblical principles and
values to be present throughout public life and society, not separate
from it.

 "It was Alexander Hamilton who pointed out that 'judges should be bound
down by strict rules and precedents, which serve to define and point out
their duty.' Bound down! That is exactly what is needed to be done.
There
was not a single precedent cited when school prayer was struck down in
1962.

 "These judges who legislate instead of adjudicate, do it without being
 responsible to one single solitary voter for their actions. Among the
 signers of the Declaration of Independence was a brilliant young
physician from Pennsylvania named Benjamin Rush.

 "When Rush was elected to that First Continental Congress, his close
friend Benjamin Franklin told him  'We need you..... we have a great
task
before us, assigned to us by Providence.'   Today, 228 years later there
is still a great task before us assigned to us by Providence. Our
Founding Fathers did not shirk their duty and we can do no less.

 "By the way, Benjamin Rush was once asked a question that has long
interested this Senator from Georgia in particular. Dr. Rush was asked,
are you a democrat or an aristocrat? And the good doctor answered, 'I am
neither. I am a Christocrat. I believe He, alone, who created and
redeemed man is qualified to govern him.'  That reply of Benjamin Rush
is
just as true today in the year of our Lord 2004 as it was in the year of
our Lord 1776.

 "So, if I am asked why - with all the pressing problems this nation
faces today - why am I pushing these social issues and taking the
Senate's valuable time? I will answer: Because, it is of the highest
importance. Yes, there's a deficit to be concerned about in this
country,
a deficit of decency.

 "So, as the sand empties through my hourglass at warp speed - and with
my time running out in this Senate and on this earth, I feel compelled
to
speak out. For I truly believe that at times like this, silence is not
golden. It is yellow."
 

---
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Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com).
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From rowen1 at triad.rr.com  Fri Feb 20 21:26:35 2004
From: rowen1 at triad.rr.com (Roger Owen)
Date: Thu Mar 24 11:50:19 2005
Subject: [owen] golf
References: <001b01c3f708$b83b5100$9989fea9@oemcomputer>
Message-ID: <007b01c3f822$2220fe70$6401a8c0@gayleowen>

Uncle Lawrence, some things change and some things never change.  I remember when you and Kathleen lived in Hereford and I was but a lad, you complained about the phone company trying to sell you a colored princess phone with the new touch tone dialing.  You were adamant about the extra $1.00 or $2.00 and said that the old black dial up phones were plenty good for you and you saw no reason for changing.  When I read about your using Word Perfect (as opposed to Word), I immediately thought of that phone episode many years ago.  As I read your postings on this site from time to time, it just occurs to me that you have rarely marched on the side of the majority.  And that is what makes you who you are, loving to make a case for whatever it is that you believe in.  But I do believe that you enjoy "stirring the pot" just a little!

Lookfing forward to teeing it up with you in a few weeks.

Roger
  ----- Original Message ----- 
  From: lawrence 
  To: owen@owenconnections.com 
  Sent: Thursday, February 19, 2004 11:51 AM
  Subject: [owen] golf


  I'm still trying to send a document from Word Perfect.


------------------------------------------------------------------------------


  _______________________________________________
  Owen mailing list
  Owen@owenconnections.com
  https://my.binhost.com/lists/listinfo/owen
  Full archives at: http://archives.binhost.com/~owen
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From klowen at hsnp.com  Sat Feb 21 09:56:45 2004
From: klowen at hsnp.com (lawrence)
Date: Thu Mar 24 11:50:19 2005
Subject: [owen] Christocrats
Message-ID: <004101c3f88c$5f255d60$9989fea9@oemcomputer>

Kelly --

Thank you for posting Zell Miller's rant.  I needed a good laugh.

Miller held off mentioning the enemy until paragraph ten: THE CULTURE OF FAR LEFT AMERICA.
That Georgia cracker voted for tax cuts for the rich, for all the Bush measures that have generated
a deficit that swells some $900,000 a minute, and he says rappers are indecent, that Janet 
Jackson's tit is indecent.  I think Miller's hypocirisy is indecent.

Miller quotes Benjamin Rush saying:"I am a Christocrat.  I believe He alone, who created
and redeemed man is qualified to govern him."  Then Miller says Rush's statement is as 
true today as  it was in 1776.  But Miller does not want a state religion.  Oh no.  He wants the 
ten commandments in the court house, but he does not want a state religion.  Oh no.  He fumes
because jduges said no to official prayers in school, but he does not want a state religion.  Oh
goodness no.  He blusters because America's popular culture runs on its own energies, 
energies way gone from the control of a good ole white boy Christian from Georgia.

I'm against indeceny too, but Janet Jackson's boob does not bother me.  I thoroughly enjoyed 
watching the super bowl.  Because the Patriots won, Kyle baked me a delicious cherry
cheesecake.  The TV set obeys some instructions from me.  When watching sporting events,
which I enjoy doing, I always leave the sound turned off.  At halftime, during timeouts,
during commercials, I read.  I didn't know Janet Jackson had shown me her boob until I read
about it in the papers next day.  I guess ole Zell is a slave to his TV and to popular musicians --
he is forced agaisnt his will to watch and listen to THE CULTURE OF FAR LEFT AMERICA.
Poor Zell.

That CEOs are awarded tens of millions of dollars, annually, while workers in their companies
lsoe thier pensions and their health care benefits is indecent.  That Dick Cheney conducts
secret hearings to make energy policy is indecent.  That university coaches are paid hundreds of 
thousands, plus TV and product endorsements, while the janitors who keep offices clean for the
coaches are paid a pittance is indecent.   That a high school spends more for tape used to wrap
around the limbs and joints of athletes than on books for the library is indecent.  My long list 
of indecencies would not mention sex or the loss of male control over the 
sexual behavior of women.  My list, unlike Zell Miller's, would just be boring.

Let's hear it for NASCAR, for cockfighting, for unlimited access by snowmobilers to everywhere
they want to go, for loggers chopping down any tree they please, for tv evangelists doing their robbery stunts right out in the open, for paving any ground we please and calling that development --
let's hear it for THE CULTURE OF ZELL MILLER AND FAR RIGHT AMERICA.  Yeah!

Cheers --  Lawrence








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From june at binhost.com  Sat Feb 21 10:58:39 2004
From: june at binhost.com (June Newman)
Date: Thu Mar 24 11:50:19 2005
Subject: [owen] Helen
Message-ID: <D04502D0-6486-11D8-A2EC-000A95C48E6C@binhost.com>

Daddy sends a good report today.  Mother's gastrointestinal import, 
transport, and export systems are again operational.  (She would not 
like for me to broadcast a bowel report!)  Tubes are out of all 
orifices.  As soon as she began taking blood pressure meds by mouth her 
blood pressure went down.  Love to all of you, June


From WWeiler884 at aol.com  Sat Feb 21 13:23:13 2004
From: WWeiler884 at aol.com (WWeiler884@aol.com)
Date: Thu Mar 24 11:50:19 2005
Subject: [owen] Helen
Message-ID: <d9.3f16b2b.2d68fc11@aol.com>

June,

Good to get your positive and TASTEFUL report on your mom. Hope all continues 
to go well and that she'll be home soon. martha
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From owengj at ultravision.net  Sat Feb 21 14:04:27 2004
From: owengj at ultravision.net (G P Owen)
Date: Thu Mar 24 11:50:19 2005
Subject: [owen] Jean
Message-ID: <000a01c3f8ad$87e10e90$556e87d8@DH61ZN21>

I just got home a little bit ago after taking Jean to the emergency room at Navarro General Hospital about 3:30 this morning.  She was experiencing  discomfort and tightness in her chest and had not been able to go to sleep all night.  Her blood pressure was very high and she  had liquid retention.  When I left she was feeling good, sitting up eating her breakfast.  They had brought her blood pressure down to normal and wanted to keep her in the hospital for at least 24 hours to observe her heart.  Will let you know when I know anything new.  Helen's report was good news.  Love, G P
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From owengj at ultravision.net  Sat Feb 21 22:07:58 2004
From: owengj at ultravision.net (G P Owen)
Date: Thu Mar 24 11:50:19 2005
Subject: [owen] Jean
Message-ID: <001501c3f8f1$1385abc0$606e87d8@DH61ZN21>

I just got home from the hospital.  Jean ate two meals today and has felt good since about 10 AM.  The are continuing to monitor her heart.  The Dr told her this afternoon that she should get to come home tomorrow.  Your expressions of concern and prayers are appreciated.  Love Ya,  G P
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From bowen at netset.com  Sun Feb 22 11:52:15 2004
From: bowen at netset.com (Beatrice Owen)
Date: Thu Mar 24 11:50:19 2005
Subject: [owen] Decency Deficit
Message-ID: <01C3F93A.525DBC40.bowen@netset.com>

On February 12 Senator Zell Miller gave a speech on a deficit of decency in 
our country.  Another senator, Tom Daschle, gave a speech on the Indian 
Budget.  It seems to me that our continued mistreatment of the Indian 
Tribes in this country is quite indecent.  I recommend reading what Daschle 
said on the floor of the senate.  (Kennedy's speech on the loss of jobs was 
pretty good too.)

love,
beatrice


From owengj at ultravision.net  Sun Feb 22 22:32:22 2004
From: owengj at ultravision.net (G P Owen)
Date: Thu Mar 24 11:50:19 2005
Subject: [owen] Jean's at Home
Message-ID: <000801c3f9bd$efbd6d90$5b6e87d8@DH61ZN21>

The doctor released Jean approximately 3:30 PM.  They are going to run additional  tests next week to see if they can determine what her problem is(was).  She is to call in the morning to schedule a stress test to determine if her heart is involved.  She is feeling fine at the present time--even is fussing at me a little bit.  Love Ya All, G P
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From Dowen at wcvt.com  Mon Feb 23 08:28:49 2004
From: Dowen at wcvt.com (Owen, Dan)
Date: Thu Mar 24 11:50:19 2005
Subject: [owen] Decency Deficit
Message-ID: <3367C8BA324FD311AD06009027514849015F3DD3@tnet.wcvt.com>

Not all Indian Tribes in this country are mistreated.  In fact some Indian
Tribes mistreat non-Indians.  The Mohegan's who run The Mohegan Sun Casino
in Connecticut separate money from non-Indians on a daily basis.  Where is
the equity in that?
Love you all Dan O...................

-----Original Message-----
From: owen-bounces@owenconnections.com
[mailto:owen-bounces@owenconnections.com]On Behalf Of Beatrice Owen
Sent: Sunday, February 22, 2004 11:52 AM
To: 'owen@owenconnections.com'
Subject: [owen] Decency Deficit


On February 12 Senator Zell Miller gave a speech on a deficit of decency in 
our country.  Another senator, Tom Daschle, gave a speech on the Indian 
Budget.  It seems to me that our continued mistreatment of the Indian 
Tribes in this country is quite indecent.  I recommend reading what Daschle 
said on the floor of the senate.  (Kennedy's speech on the loss of jobs was 
pretty good too.)

love,
beatrice

_______________________________________________
Owen mailing list
Owen@owenconnections.com
https://my.binhost.com/lists/listinfo/owen
Full archives at: http://archives.binhost.com/~owen

From kmcassels at sbcw-law.com  Mon Feb 23 10:02:23 2004
From: kmcassels at sbcw-law.com (Kelly Mack Cassels)
Date: Thu Mar 24 11:50:19 2005
Subject: [owen] Christocrats
In-Reply-To: <004101c3f88c$5f255d60$9989fea9@oemcomputer>
Message-ID: <004501c3fa1e$1b23cdc0$c793fea9@domain1>

I figured you were a Millerocrat.  I guess I was wrong.  
 
The Janet Jackson show wasn?t bad for what it showed (You?d have to
rewind the VCR or the Tivo to see enough to be offended), but for the
message it sent.  It said to men that it is OK to rip the clothing off
of your girl, to make her your ?thing? to be used as you see fit, even
if it means exposing her to the world.  It gives the message to young
girls that you shouldn?t complain when treated this way.  I was a crappy
message, that shouldn?t have been broadcast.
 
But why cry over spilled milk?
 
Kelly
 

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From june at binhost.com  Mon Feb 23 10:32:52 2004
From: june at binhost.com (June Newman)
Date: Thu Mar 24 11:50:19 2005
Subject: [owen] crappy message
In-Reply-To: <004501c3fa1e$1b23cdc0$c793fea9@domain1>
References: <004501c3fa1e$1b23cdc0$c793fea9@domain1>
Message-ID: <8B6B9AC9-6615-11D8-A2EC-000A95C48E6C@binhost.com>

Kelly, I agree that is a crappy message.  I sometimes hear pop lyrics 
that seem to send that message (when I can understand them), and they 
are offensive and degrading to women.  Perhaps I've missed it, but that 
is not the basis for moral offense that I've heard expressed.  It seems 
to me that the outrage is at the simple fact of nudity.  Neither the 
Church nor the FCC (among other entities) has a consistent record of 
opposing crappy messages about the place of women relative to men.  
Where is the outcry when the subjects remain clothed?

  June

On Feb 23, 2004, at 9:02 AM, Kelly Mack Cassels wrote:

> I figured you were a Millerocrat.? I guess I was wrong.?
>
>  ?
>
> The Janet Jackson show wasn?t bad for what it showed (You?d have to 
> rewind the VCR or the Tivo to see enough to be offended), but for the 
> message it sent.? It said to men that it is OK to rip the clothing off 
> of your girl, to make her your ?thing? to be used as you see fit, even 
> if it means exposing her to the world.? It gives the message to young 
> girls that you shouldn?t complain when treated this way.? I was a 
> crappy message, that shouldn?t have been broadcast.
>
> ?
>
> But why cry over spilled milk?
>
> ?
>
> Kelly
>
> ?
>
>
>
> ---
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>  Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com).
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>
>
>
>
>
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> _______________________________________________
> Owen mailing list
> Owen@owenconnections.com
> https://my.binhost.com/lists/listinfo/owen
> Full archives at: http://archives.binhost.com/~owen


From kmcassels at sbcw-law.com  Mon Feb 23 11:02:59 2004
From: kmcassels at sbcw-law.com (Kelly Mack Cassels)
Date: Thu Mar 24 11:50:19 2005
Subject: [owen] crappy message
In-Reply-To: <8B6B9AC9-6615-11D8-A2EC-000A95C48E6C@binhost.com>
Message-ID: <000601c3fa26$8e250d40$c793fea9@domain1>

June,

I cannot answer for the Church.  Sadly, it is made up of fallible people
trying to imitate an infallible God.  I am the most fallible of all.  As
I have written before, Christianity and the New Testament was the force
that moved women from property to people who had the right to expect
love and honor from their husbands.  

The nudity was so brief as to be irrelevant, the message of the act will
linger.  Its like the horrible lyrics of Eminem (sp?), you don't have to
have Faith to know that there is something wrong with the way he depicts
women.  Yet he gets a standing ovation at the Grammies from the
Beautiful Crowd.  I predict that before long Janet Jackson will be
similarly applauded for daring to so boldly exercise her First Amendment
Rights and that anyone who dares speak against her actions will be
branded as ignorant, intolerant, judgmental, fundamentalist
Christians...and the message will get louder.

Kelly 



-----Original Message-----
From: owen-bounces@owenconnections.com
[mailto:owen-bounces@owenconnections.com] On Behalf Of June Newman
Sent: Monday, February 23, 2004 8:33 AM
To: owen@owenconnections.com
Subject: [owen] crappy message

Kelly, I agree that is a crappy message.  I sometimes hear pop lyrics 
that seem to send that message (when I can understand them), and they 
are offensive and degrading to women.  Perhaps I've missed it, but that 
is not the basis for moral offense that I've heard expressed.  It seems 
to me that the outrage is at the simple fact of nudity.  Neither the 
Church nor the FCC (among other entities) has a consistent record of 
opposing crappy messages about the place of women relative to men.  
Where is the outcry when the subjects remain clothed?

  June
 

---
Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free.
Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com).
Version: 6.0.577 / Virus Database: 366 - Release Date: 2/3/04
 


From justin.newman at binhost.com  Mon Feb 23 11:30:31 2004
From: justin.newman at binhost.com (Justin B. Newman)
Date: Thu Mar 24 11:50:19 2005
Subject: [owen] crappy message
In-Reply-To: <000601c3fa26$8e250d40$c793fea9@domain1>
References: <000601c3fa26$8e250d40$c793fea9@domain1>
Message-ID: <98C4415E-661D-11D8-B805-000393A6F71A@binhost.com>


On Feb 23, 2004, at 11:02 AM, Kelly Mack Cassels wrote:
>
> Beautiful Crowd.  I predict that before long Janet Jackson will be
> similarly applauded for daring to so boldly exercise her First 
> Amendment
> Rights and that anyone who dares speak against her actions will be
> branded as ignorant, intolerant, judgmental, fundamentalist
> Christians...and the message will get louder.
>

Should it be legal, should it be done, and should consumers support it 
financially are three very different questions.  Sadly, Janet and 
Justin's albums will sell.  A failure in the marketplace is the most 
effective form of regulation...

-jbn


From june at binhost.com  Mon Feb 23 11:30:28 2004
From: june at binhost.com (June Newman)
Date: Thu Mar 24 11:50:19 2005
Subject: [owen] Helen
Message-ID: <9734021A-661D-11D8-A2EC-000A95C48E6C@binhost.com>

Daddy just called to say Mother will go home from the hospital this 
afternoon, perhaps late.  She is in a regular room now with a phone.  
816 691-1837.
Love to all of you.  June


From june at binhost.com  Mon Feb 23 21:03:20 2004
From: june at binhost.com (june@binhost.com)
Date: Thu Mar 24 11:50:19 2005
Subject: [owen] Helen
Message-ID: <20040224020320.25807.qmail@woodstock.binhost.com>


Mother is home and settled into her own chair.  She is glad to be home! I'm
here tonight, until tomorrow afternoon.  Love, June

From owengj at ultravision.net  Mon Feb 23 21:53:06 2004
From: owengj at ultravision.net (G P Owen)
Date: Thu Mar 24 11:50:19 2005
Subject: [owen] Helen
References: <20040224020320.25807.qmail@woodstock.binhost.com>
Message-ID: <000f01c3fa81$6c9c1780$556e87d8@DH61ZN21>

It is great that you are home.  Jean has just sat and looked out the window
at times today and I am sure you are looking at the familiar sights.  Love
Ya, G P
----- Original Message ----- 
Mother is home and settled into her own chair.  She is glad to be home! I'm
here tonight, until tomorrow afternoon.  Love, June
_______________________________________________
Owen mailing list
Owen@owenconnections.com
https://my.binhost.com/lists/listinfo/owen
Full archives at: http://archives.binhost.com/~owen


From homerowen at earthlink.net  Tue Feb 24 06:22:19 2004
From: homerowen at earthlink.net (Homer Owen)
Date: Thu Mar 24 11:50:19 2005
Subject: [owen] Helen
References: <20040224020320.25807.qmail@woodstock.binhost.com>
Message-ID: <001d01c3fac8$789f12c0$a376fea9@compaq06>

The next time they say go west I hope it will be for a different reason.
Glad you are home and Ruby and I pray that your health will spring forth
quickly along with the spring of the year.  We love you both.
Homer
----- Original Message -----
From: <june@binhost.com>
To: <owen@owenconnections.com>
Sent: Monday, February 23, 2004 8:03 PM
Subject: [owen] Helen



Mother is home and settled into her own chair.  She is glad to be home! I'm
here tonight, until tomorrow afternoon.  Love, June
_______________________________________________
Owen mailing list
Owen@owenconnections.com
https://my.binhost.com/lists/listinfo/owen
Full archives at: http://archives.binhost.com/~owen


From jowen at greenhills.net  Tue Feb 24 20:09:30 2004
From: jowen at greenhills.net (Jack)
Date: Thu Mar 24 11:50:19 2005
Subject: [owen] just wondering
Message-ID: <200402250057.i1P0vn0D016401@ghlin4.greenhills.net>

      There is something happening in our nation that has me 
wondering, maybe some of you can give me a "good" answer
    Our president is trying to get a constitution ammendment to ban 
same sex marrige. The president  today called marrige the " most 
enduring human institution". How could he justify that statement 
when there is a 40% divorce rate in this country? That looks to me 
like it wrecks the instution of marriage way more than people of the 
same sex marrying ever could.
         Just wondering, love you all Jack, married to the same 
woman for 63 years.


From jd.cassels at verizon.net  Tue Feb 24 20:07:18 2004
From: jd.cassels at verizon.net (Jeff Cassels)
Date: Thu Mar 24 11:50:19 2005
Subject: [owen] just wondering
In-Reply-To: <200402250057.i1P0vn0D016401@ghlin4.greenhills.net>
Message-ID: <000001c3fb3b$b6d795d0$28603f04@Cassels>

What does the divorce rate have to do with whether gay marriage is right
or wrong?  I don't connect the two.  We won't agree on this because the
basis for my beliefs on this matter is different than yours.  Do you
support gay adoption?  Shouldn't children have both a mom and a dad?
Gay couples cannot procreate without a third party.  It is not natural.
It is not what God intended based on the Bible.

That's my answer.

-----Original Message-----
From: owen-bounces@owenconnections.com
[mailto:owen-bounces@owenconnections.com] On Behalf Of Jack
Sent: Tuesday, February 24, 2004 7:10 PM
To: owen@owenconnections.com
Subject: [owen] just wondering


      There is something happening in our nation that has me 
wondering, maybe some of you can give me a "good" answer
    Our president is trying to get a constitution ammendment to ban 
same sex marrige. The president  today called marrige the " most 
enduring human institution". How could he justify that statement 
when there is a 40% divorce rate in this country? That looks to me 
like it wrecks the instution of marriage way more than people of the 
same sex marrying ever could.
         Just wondering, love you all Jack, married to the same 
woman for 63 years.

_______________________________________________
Owen mailing list
Owen@owenconnections.com https://my.binhost.com/lists/listinfo/owen
Full archives at: http://archives.binhost.com/~owen


From owengj at ultravision.net  Tue Feb 24 20:24:20 2004
From: owengj at ultravision.net (G P Owen)
Date: Thu Mar 24 11:50:19 2005
Subject: [owen] Just Wondering
Message-ID: <000c01c3fb3e$307146a0$716e87d8@DH61ZN21>

Jack,  for once I agree with Dubya.  He stated that marriage as an institution is long standing.  Marriage of a man and a woman has been around since recorded history.  We as a society do not put any  penalty on divorced couples or educate the young peeople on the importance of the marriage  vow --till death does part you.  You and Helen are very important examples for all our family.  Love ya,  G P
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From justin.newman at binhost.com  Tue Feb 24 20:32:09 2004
From: justin.newman at binhost.com (Justin B. Newman)
Date: Thu Mar 24 11:50:19 2005
Subject: [owen] just wondering
In-Reply-To: <000001c3fb3b$b6d795d0$28603f04@Cassels>
References: <000001c3fb3b$b6d795d0$28603f04@Cassels>
Message-ID: <6DD440F8-6732-11D8-B805-000393A6F71A@binhost.com>


On Feb 24, 2004, at 8:07 PM, Jeff Cassels wrote:

> What does the divorce rate have to do with whether gay marriage is 
> right
> or wrong?  I don't connect the two.  We won't agree on this because the
> basis for my beliefs on this matter is different than yours.  Do you
> support gay adoption?  Shouldn't children have both a mom and a dad?
> Gay couples cannot procreate without a third party.  It is not natural.
> It is not what God intended based on the Bible.

Jeff,

The question of gay adoption is different from the question of gay 
marriage.  It's a red herring.

In my view, the question comes down to this: Do we legislate morality?

If so, then whose view of morality do we legislate?  Within the 
lifetime of my grandfather, Christian leaders have suggested biblical 
interpretations suggesting that it's amoral for women to work, men and 
women of different races to marry, non-whites to ride at the front of 
the bus, and more.  How does the Government decide what's truly moral 
and not?

I believe the government should stay out of morals.  I have no problem 
with people choosing to protest at gay marriages, boycotting companies 
lead by gays, or anything else.  That's a market decision.  It's not 
for the government to get in the middle of, though.

-jbn


From homerowen at earthlink.net  Wed Feb 25 06:01:35 2004
From: homerowen at earthlink.net (Homer Owen)
Date: Thu Mar 24 11:50:19 2005
Subject: [owen] marriage
Message-ID: <002701c3fb8e$bd6beb00$a376fea9@compaq06>

Jack, I admire your 63 years with Helen.  It speaks volumes about marriage to the opposite sex to me.]
Our Mother told me one time that when she married our Father she never one time considered leaving him because it was not an option. I have thought on that statement for many years and am thankful to her God for giving her no option.
I believe this is part of the basic foundation of your 63 years with Helen. You simply gave yourself no option.  I again admire you for this decision.  It came right out of the heart of your parents who got it right out of the heart of their God.
One of the major points of most of our disagreements is over the idea of absolutes.  Our Bible background gives us absolutes.  Again, this is where your 63 years is based.  Absolutely!
Your favorite little baby brother,
Homer
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From homerowen at earthlink.net  Wed Feb 25 06:17:24 2004
From: homerowen at earthlink.net (Homer Owen)
Date: Thu Mar 24 11:50:19 2005
Subject: [owen] just wondering
References: <000001c3fb3b$b6d795d0$28603f04@Cassels>
	<6DD440F8-6732-11D8-B805-000393A6F71A@binhost.com>
Message-ID: <002d01c3fb90$f2e71a00$a376fea9@compaq06>

Good morning Justin:  I agree with you about the things that you listed as
being wrong.  To blame Christians for these things is also wrong.  To allow
Christian leaders to give their views is right the same as it is your right
to give your views.  I am so thankful that we still live in a country that
allows this.  Ruby and I live in a part of the world that does not allow
freedom of expression while we are in the Mid East.  Israel does but no
other nation around them.  Last count their were 18 nations in this block of
nations and only one allows freedom of expression.
Our nation was founded on Biblical morality as the standard.  Most of the
American people have been deceived with the notion that we are suppose to
have a separation of Church and State.
Our founding fathers never intended to have a separation of Church and
State.  What they were against was a State religion which does not allow
freedom of expression.
Our very declaration of Independence declares to us that we are to have a
Godly nation.  Big difference between a State religion and a Godly nation.
Our President has just called for the people to decide about an amendment to
our Constitution about marriage.  Isn't this wonderful?  I am personally
glad that he is not able to make this decision all by himself.  I agree with
his basic belief but I want to be able to allow you to express yourself and
then both of us go and vote on this very important matter.
At the moment we have un-godly judges making laws without the consent of the
people.  This is bad.
I appreciate your thoughts,
Homer
----- Original Message -----
From: "Justin B. Newman" <justin.newman@binhost.com>
To: <owen@owenconnections.com>
Sent: Tuesday, February 24, 2004 7:32 PM
Subject: Re: [owen] just wondering


>
> On Feb 24, 2004, at 8:07 PM, Jeff Cassels wrote:
>
> > What does the divorce rate have to do with whether gay marriage is
> > right
> > or wrong?  I don't connect the two.  We won't agree on this because the
> > basis for my beliefs on this matter is different than yours.  Do you
> > support gay adoption?  Shouldn't children have both a mom and a dad?
> > Gay couples cannot procreate without a third party.  It is not natural.
> > It is not what God intended based on the Bible.
>
> Jeff,
>
> The question of gay adoption is different from the question of gay
> marriage.  It's a red herring.
>
> In my view, the question comes down to this: Do we legislate morality?
>
> If so, then whose view of morality do we legislate?  Within the
> lifetime of my grandfather, Christian leaders have suggested biblical
> interpretations suggesting that it's amoral for women to work, men and
> women of different races to marry, non-whites to ride at the front of
> the bus, and more.  How does the Government decide what's truly moral
> and not?
>
> I believe the government should stay out of morals.  I have no problem
> with people choosing to protest at gay marriages, boycotting companies
> lead by gays, or anything else.  That's a market decision.  It's not
> for the government to get in the middle of, though.
>
> -jbn
>
> _______________________________________________
> Owen mailing list
> Owen@owenconnections.com
> https://my.binhost.com/lists/listinfo/owen
> Full archives at: http://archives.binhost.com/~owen


From jowen at greenhills.net  Wed Feb 25 07:03:18 2004
From: jowen at greenhills.net (Jack)
Date: Thu Mar 24 11:50:19 2005
Subject: [owen] just wondering
Message-ID: <200402251151.i1PBpa0D025181@ghlin4.greenhills.net>

      Jeff;  To me   Divorce of state sanctioned married couples of 
man and woman, has a lot to do with the argument for  state 
sanctioned marriage between couples of the same sex. The 
President talks of the marrige of same sex couples as a threat to 
the institution of marriage, 40% divorce is also a threat to the 
institution of marriage. Yes i am for  same sex couples adopting 
children. It is better for a child to be loved by a couple of the same 
sex than to feel like it is loved by no one by being thrown from one 
person to the other person, going to court to decides who gets 
them. There are many  opposite sex couples that have to have a 
third party to conceive children. 
         Love you all Jack


From klowen at hsnp.com  Wed Feb 25 08:43:40 2004
From: klowen at hsnp.com (lawrence)
Date: Thu Mar 24 11:50:20 2005
Subject: [owen] marriage amendment
Message-ID: <000a01c3fba5$79983660$9989fea9@oemcomputer>

Good of you, Jack,  to give us a topic to think about.

Who profits from a constitutional amendment defining marriage as union of man and woman?
Photographers, tuxedo rental agencies, bridal dress designers and manugacturers, jewelers, 
honeymoon suite owners, wedding chapel proprietors, caterers, wedding planners, preachers,
printers, florists . . . . . . . .    A huge industry.  Many votes.

Any states' righter who supports the proposed amendment should wear a big, bright H, 
for hypocrite, in a prominent place.

The proposed amendment won't make a lick of difference in the way people live their lives.
We will continue behaving so as to be easy in our community, to get laid when we can, 
to propagate the species, to manipulate others to do our will, to help others in projects good
for all,  to profit off creative schemes, to associate freely with people we choose to associate
with -- in and out of beds.  The proposed amendment keeps politicians talking, gives editorialists
a juicy topic, keeps Gary Bauer and Family Focus types in lucrative work, but it will not stop
divorces, will not prevent same-sex togetherness, will not stop incest, will not prevent all the
emotional/physical abuse that goes on in marriages.   Will give preachers a sermon topic forever.

The proposed amendment gives Bush the moral high ground.  He and his supporters can
proclaim, as is their wont, "We are more moral than you," as they point their sanctimonious
fingers at me.

Lawrence
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From saowen at tarrantcounty.com  Wed Feb 25 09:07:18 2004
From: saowen at tarrantcounty.com (saowen@tarrantcounty.com)
Date: Thu Mar 24 11:50:20 2005
Subject: [owen] The K Chronicles
Message-ID: <200402251407.GAA32109@cobrand.salon.com>

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From klowen at hsnp.com  Wed Feb 25 11:04:40 2004
From: klowen at hsnp.com (lawrence)
Date: Thu Mar 24 11:50:20 2005
Subject: [owen] civil unions
Message-ID: <001301c3fbb9$13dd5620$9989fea9@oemcomputer>

If I had my way, civil unions or some such arrangement, providing
exactly the same legal protections and benefits as marraige,
would be available to people  including homosexuals.
Lawrence
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From justin.newman at binhost.com  Wed Feb 25 09:26:20 2004
From: justin.newman at binhost.com (Justin B. Newman)
Date: Thu Mar 24 11:50:20 2005
Subject: [owen] just wondering
In-Reply-To: <002d01c3fb90$f2e71a00$a376fea9@compaq06>
References: <000001c3fb3b$b6d795d0$28603f04@Cassels>
	<6DD440F8-6732-11D8-B805-000393A6F71A@binhost.com>
	<002d01c3fb90$f2e71a00$a376fea9@compaq06>
Message-ID: <94ADB508-679E-11D8-B805-000393A6F71A@binhost.com>


On Feb 25, 2004, at 6:17 AM, Homer Owen wrote:

> Good morning Justin:  I agree with you about the things that you 
> listed as
> being wrong.  To blame Christians for these things is also wrong.  To 
> allow
> Christian leaders to give their views is right the same as it is your 
> right
> to give your views.
I do not blame "Christians" for these things.  I do blame Christian 
leaders for interpreting the bible in ways that put personal agendas 
before love.

> Our nation was founded on Biblical morality as the standard.  Most of 
> the
> American people have been deceived with the notion that we are suppose 
> to
> have a separation of Church and State.
> Our founding fathers never intended to have a separation of Church and
> State.  What they were against was a State religion which does not 
> allow
> freedom of expression.
When settlers from Europe began arriving in America, they did establish 
colonial churches.  These churches were very often state sponsored, 
Puritan, Anglican, Catholic and the like.  Many of these colonies 
persecuted Baptists for their beliefs.  According to Fowler and 
Hertzke, authors of _Religion and Politics in America_, Baptists were 
even jailed for seeking marriages outside the established church.

Thos. Jefferson spent much of his life thinking about religion.  He 
authored a version of the New Testament, one that didn't affirm Christ 
as God.  He also authored the Virginia Statute of Religious Freedom.  
The statute is considered the foundation of the First Amendment.  Its 
passage was assured by James Madison.  These men were [from the 
outside] unlikely allies for the Baptists.  However, Baptists 
understood something very important:

> Given the pluralism among the thirteen colonies, no one could ensure 
> that any particular church would be the one established in the new 
> national government. [Fowler/Hertzke]

Just as today, there is no One Church, there was none then.  While you 
believe in your church with One God with One Way, I believe in 
something else... there is no human who can differentiate.  Only Your 
God, My God, the God of the Jews, the God of Islam ... whichever God is 
the One True and Only God, if there is such a thing, can know what the 
True Church is.  We humans may only speculate and "have faith".

For this and other reasons, our founders worked hard to establish a 
system that protects minorities from Tyranny of the Majority.  All of 
the awful, discriminatory practices I referred to in a previous email 
were examples of tyranny of the majority, justified by many Christian 
leaders of their time as part of the One Path to the One God.  Today is 
no different.

> Our very declaration of Independence declares to us that we are to 
> have a
> Godly nation.  Big difference between a State religion and a Godly 
> nation.
> Our President has just called for the people to decide about an 
> amendment to
> our Constitution about marriage.  Isn't this wonderful?  I am 
> personally
> glad that he is not able to make this decision all by himself.
It is wonderful he can't make this decision by himself.  I absolutely 
agree.

> I agree with
> his basic belief but I want to be able to allow you to express 
> yourself and
> then both of us go and vote on this very important matter.
> At the moment we have un-godly judges making laws without the consent 
> of the
> people.  This is bad.

Judges are a popular target of the Owen list, and of society in 
general.  My father was a judge.  One who was called ungodly from time 
to time.  I have more respect for his faith in God than I have for 
perhaps anyone else.  He was called ungodly because he put his 
religious beliefs aside when reading the law.  He interpreted it based 
on a couple hundred years of case law, rather than his own personal 
belief.  He served with the consent of the people, just as every judge 
in this country, from cousin Steve to Sandra Day does.  Many have life 
appointments to shield them from the public.  This is a good thing.  It 
protects our system from the daily whims of a populace interested in 
personal ends.

There were many that believed it was un-godly judges that decided Brown 
v. the Board of Education.  In many's minds, they "made law" that day 
in 1954.  Should we have amended the constitution to allow segregation?

While we're at it, should we amend the constitution to ban multiracial 
marriages?  Some biblical readers say that God did not intend for 
multiracial couples to be together?  Do multiracial marriages tear at 
the institution of marriage?  Why not?

> I appreciate your thoughts,
I appreciate your thoughts too.

Now back to work in service of our Nation.

-jbn


From Dowen at wcvt.com  Wed Feb 25 09:38:44 2004
From: Dowen at wcvt.com (Owen, Dan)
Date: Thu Mar 24 11:50:20 2005
Subject: [owen] Same sex marriage
Message-ID: <3367C8BA324FD311AD06009027514849015F3DEF@tnet.wcvt.com>

All,

The supporters of same sex marriage and some of our state courts think it
should be allowed on the basis of equal rights and equal protection, that it
is discriminatory to ban same sex marriage.  I have been thinking about this
line of thought and wonder at what point, if ever these folks think you can
draw a line.  Of those on the connection that think same sex marriage is
okay do you also support bigamy and if you think that is okay then why
should the government prohibit a sister from marrying her brother, father or
mother?  Why prohibit 12 year olds from marriage?  If you think some unions
but not all are okay then are you being pure and honest in your position or
are your also being discriminatory?  Seems to me that the equal rights
argument can be extended much further than simply same sex marriage and if
so where do you draw the line?

I had a front row seat on these arguments here in Vermont just a couple of
years ago.  I can tell you it is a black and white issue with many folks and
minds will not be changed easily.  It appears the gays have over played
their hand nationally by demanding full marriage and President Bush has the
majority of the country on his side and will use this issue to become
re-elected this fall.  Although it is currently a State issue it is only a
matter of time before it goes to the Supreme Court to decide the portability
issue between states with different marriage laws.  Why do we continue to
let courts decide for us?  Why not an open discussion on a constitutional
amendment?  In my mind state sanctioned unions are a contractual matter and
marriage is a religious arrangement with a rich heritage.  I think there is
room for both.

Love you all Dan O...................
 

From justin.newman at binhost.com  Wed Feb 25 09:38:56 2004
From: justin.newman at binhost.com (Justin B. Newman)
Date: Thu Mar 24 11:50:20 2005
Subject: [owen] Owen List Matters
Message-ID: <579424C8-67A0-11D8-B805-000393A6F71A@binhost.com>

Greetings, Folks!

I take off my "cousin" hat and put on my system administrator hat right 
now.

Ma June, Owen, Zu and I fly to Prague tomorrow.  I'll be there through 
March 8.  While I am gone, there will not be any maintenance done on 
the Owen list.  This means:

- If you send a message through that's too big, it will sit, 
unacknowledged, until I return
- If you send a message from an account that's not on the list, it will 
sit, unacknowledged, until I return
- If you want to subscribe or unsubscribe, you'll need to wait until I 
return or do the self-service option found at: 
https://my.binhost.com/lists/listinfo/owen
- If something goes terribly, horribly wrong with the list, someone can 
email support@binhost.com, and staff will take a look at it.  
Otherwise, maintenance will wait till I'm back.

The Owen Connections email list came to be in an informal version 
sometime in 1996.  Archives exist from July, 2000.  There are few 
things in life I am as thankful for my Owen family.  This list has 
given me the opportunity to get to know all of you better.

The Internet is a mixed bag.  It has porn, child molesters and pirated 
software.  It also has the ability to bring people together in ways 
that could not have happened in the days of pencil and paper.  This 
list is one such way.

Take care, ever'one,

-jbn


From Dowen at wcvt.com  Wed Feb 25 09:46:01 2004
From: Dowen at wcvt.com (Owen, Dan)
Date: Thu Mar 24 11:50:20 2005
Subject: [owen] Owen List Matters
Message-ID: <3367C8BA324FD311AD06009027514849015F3DF0@tnet.wcvt.com>

Justin,
Your hard work to maintain this connection goes unseen and unacknowledged.
I for one appreciate all you do and have been derelict in not saying so.
Great job, you are appreciated.
Love Dan O.......... 

-----Original Message-----
From: owen-bounces@owenconnections.com
[mailto:owen-bounces@owenconnections.com]On Behalf Of Justin B. Newman
Sent: Wednesday, February 25, 2004 9:39 AM
To: owen@owenconnections.com
Subject: [owen] Owen List Matters


Greetings, Folks!

I take off my "cousin" hat and put on my system administrator hat right 
now.

Ma June, Owen, Zu and I fly to Prague tomorrow.  I'll be there through 
March 8.  While I am gone, there will not be any maintenance done on 
the Owen list.  This means:

- If you send a message through that's too big, it will sit, 
unacknowledged, until I return
- If you send a message from an account that's not on the list, it will 
sit, unacknowledged, until I return
- If you want to subscribe or unsubscribe, you'll need to wait until I 
return or do the self-service option found at: 
https://my.binhost.com/lists/listinfo/owen
- If something goes terribly, horribly wrong with the list, someone can 
email support@binhost.com, and staff will take a look at it.  
Otherwise, maintenance will wait till I'm back.

The Owen Connections email list came to be in an informal version 
sometime in 1996.  Archives exist from July, 2000.  There are few 
things in life I am as thankful for my Owen family.  This list has 
given me the opportunity to get to know all of you better.

The Internet is a mixed bag.  It has porn, child molesters and pirated 
software.  It also has the ability to bring people together in ways 
that could not have happened in the days of pencil and paper.  This 
list is one such way.

Take care, ever'one,

-jbn

_______________________________________________
Owen mailing list
Owen@owenconnections.com
https://my.binhost.com/lists/listinfo/owen
Full archives at: http://archives.binhost.com/~owen

From june at binhost.com  Wed Feb 25 09:55:44 2004
From: june at binhost.com (June Newman)
Date: Thu Mar 24 11:50:20 2005
Subject: [owen] civil unions
In-Reply-To: <001301c3fbb9$13dd5620$9989fea9@oemcomputer>
References: <001301c3fbb9$13dd5620$9989fea9@oemcomputer>
Message-ID: <B0456DD0-67A2-11D8-BB1A-000A95C48E6C@binhost.com>

Steve, or anyone who knows, is there a legal distinction between 
marriage and civil unions?

It seems to me that marriage is a cultural and religious concept and 
that the state has appropriate interest only in the civil arrangement.  
If law provides for certain status of couples, how can it distinguish 
one couple from another based on anything of a private nature?  The 
state does not examine heterosexual couples concerning the nature of 
their relationship.  A church can offer a religious ceremony of 
marriage to whomever it wishes under whatever notions of God's 
intentions it wishes.  That should not be confused with the civil state 
of marriage.  The line between the two has become quite blurred and it 
should not be.  Churches do not have the right to impose religious 
rules on individuals nor on the state.

Marriage as the exclusive right of one man and one woman is not 
historically universal.  And if it were, cultures evolve and abandon 
longstanding institutions such as slavery or male only voting 
privilege.  The notion of state as an inforcer of religious ideals is 
past due for rejection as well.   A church can herd the sheep into 
whatever fold they can manage to get them into, but they should do it 
without the stick of civil law.

Now I'm going to duck the fire and pack my bags.  Owen finishes the 
Missouri bar exam, for better or worse, this afternoon in Jeff City.  
He, Zuzana, Justin, and I will all meet at the airport in Prague 
tomorrow by noon for a visit with Zu's family.    I'll return to 
Lawrence on Mar 8.

June


On Feb 25, 2004, at 10:04 AM, lawrence wrote:

> If I had my way, civil unions or some such arrangement, providing
> exactly the same legal protections and benefits as marraige,
> would be available to people? including homosexuals.
> Lawrence
> _______________________________________________
> Owen mailing list
> Owen@owenconnections.com
> https://my.binhost.com/lists/listinfo/owen
> Full archives at: http://archives.binhost.com/~owen


From klowen at hsnp.com  Wed Feb 25 12:00:31 2004
From: klowen at hsnp.com (lawrence)
Date: Thu Mar 24 11:50:20 2005
Subject: [owen] bigamists and incest practicioners
Message-ID: <000e01c3fbc0$f44d38e0$9989fea9@oemcomputer>

Dan --
I'd love to read or hear the arguments made by the
bigamists in favor of making bigamy legal.  Ditto
for those who practice incest.   There are several hundred 
thousands of homosexuals who make strong arguments 
in favor of their unions being sanctioned by legal authorities.
I'm not aware of any organization that advocates
the legalizaztion of incest or bigamy.
Lawrence

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From Dowen at wcvt.com  Wed Feb 25 10:25:57 2004
From: Dowen at wcvt.com (Owen, Dan)
Date: Thu Mar 24 11:50:20 2005
Subject: [owen] bigamists and incest practicioners
Message-ID: <3367C8BA324FD311AD06009027514849015F3DF2@tnet.wcvt.com>

Lawrence,
There is a number of bigamists in the Utah area that are afraid to speak out
because they will get thrown in jail, unlike practicing homosexuals.  We
elect self proclaimed homosexuals to government offices, teaching positions,
clergy and so on.  Currently bigamy is not politically correct but why not?
There was a time in this country that incest and homosexuality were
considered equally abhorrent.    A lot of folks feel if it doesn't hurt
anyone else then it is okay, live and let live.  Why doesn't this line of
thinking apply to bigamy and incest?  The point I am making is where do you
draw the line on equal rights?
Dan O...............      

-----Original Message-----
From: owen-bounces@owenconnections.com
[mailto:owen-bounces@owenconnections.com]On Behalf Of lawrence
Sent: Wednesday, February 25, 2004 12:01 PM
To: owen@owenconnections.com
Subject: [owen] bigamists and incest practicioners


Dan --
I'd love to read or hear the arguments made by the
bigamists in favor of making bigamy legal.  Ditto
for those who practice incest.   There are several hundred 
thousands of homosexuals who make strong arguments 
in favor of their unions being sanctioned by legal authorities.
I'm not aware of any organization that advocates
the legalizaztion of incest or bigamy.
Lawrence
 

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From gmb42 at yahoo.com  Wed Feb 25 10:31:57 2004
From: gmb42 at yahoo.com (Nathaniel Owen)
Date: Thu Mar 24 11:50:20 2005
Subject: [owen] Owen List Matters
In-Reply-To: <3367C8BA324FD311AD06009027514849015F3DF0@tnet.wcvt.com>
Message-ID: <20040225153157.31479.qmail@web40706.mail.yahoo.com>

Justin,
 
If you ever need any help with the maintenance of the list, need someone to take over the reins while your out of town, etc. Just give me a hollar and I will gladly help out.  Also, I was interested if we wanted to make the web presence of the page a little stronger with maybe a list of contacts, special event bulletin, etc.  I'd be more than happy to put something together.  But Justin, you do a great job and you are very appreciated.
 
On a side note....have a great time in Prague and if you get the chance go and eat at a restaurant called Club Arkitect.  I think that's the name of it....it's amazing food.  The chef's got a dish with his famous sauce that is absolutely to die for.  I'd almost go back to Prague just to eat at that place.
 
Nate

"Owen, Dan" <Dowen@wcvt.com> wrote:
Justin,
Your hard work to maintain this connection goes unseen and unacknowledged.
I for one appreciate all you do and have been derelict in not saying so.
Great job, you are appreciated.
Love Dan O.......... 

-----Original Message-----
From: owen-bounces@owenconnections.com
[mailto:owen-bounces@owenconnections.com]On Behalf Of Justin B. Newman
Sent: Wednesday, February 25, 2004 9:39 AM
To: owen@owenconnections.com
Subject: [owen] Owen List Matters


Greetings, Folks!

I take off my "cousin" hat and put on my system administrator hat right 
now.

Ma June, Owen, Zu and I fly to Prague tomorrow. I'll be there through 
March 8. While I am gone, there will not be any maintenance done on 
the Owen list. This means:

- If you send a message through that's too big, it will sit, 
unacknowledged, until I return
- If you send a message from an account that's not on the list, it will 
sit, unacknowledged, until I return
- If you want to subscribe or unsubscribe, you'll need to wait until I 
return or do the self-service option found at: 
https://my.binhost.com/lists/listinfo/owen
- If something goes terribly, horribly wrong with the list, someone can 
email support@binhost.com, and staff will take a look at it. 
Otherwise, maintenance will wait till I'm back.

The Owen Connections email list came to be in an informal version 
sometime in 1996. Archives exist from July, 2000. There are few 
things in life I am as thankful for my Owen family. This list has 
given me the opportunity to get to know all of you better.

The Internet is a mixed bag. It has porn, child molesters and pirated 
software. It also has the ability to bring people together in ways 
that could not have happened in the days of pencil and paper. This 
list is one such way.

Take care, ever'one,

-jbn

_______________________________________________
Owen mailing list
Owen@owenconnections.com
https://my.binhost.com/lists/listinfo/owen
Full archives at: http://archives.binhost.com/~owen
_______________________________________________
Owen mailing list
Owen@owenconnections.com
https://my.binhost.com/lists/listinfo/owen
Full archives at: http://archives.binhost.com/~owen

---------------------------------
Do you Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Mail SpamGuard - Read only the mail you want.
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From kmcassels at sbcw-law.com  Wed Feb 25 10:35:44 2004
From: kmcassels at sbcw-law.com (Kelly Mack Cassels)
Date: Thu Mar 24 11:50:20 2005
Subject: [owen] just wondering
In-Reply-To: <6DD440F8-6732-11D8-B805-000393A6F71A@binhost.com>
Message-ID: <003801c3fbb5$0d390980$c793fea9@domain1>

 
 
-----Original Message-----
From: owen-bounces@owenconnections.com
[mailto:owen-bounces@owenconnections.com] On Behalf Of Justin B. Newman
Sent: Tuesday, February 24, 2004 6:32 PM


"In my view, the question comes down to this: Do we legislate morality?"
 
Of course we do.  It is illegal to steal because it?s an immoral act to
take something that is not yours.  The same is true of murder, slander,
discrimination and fraud.  Our law is based on our morals as a society.
As our society changes, so do our morals, and the laws are quick to
follow.
 
I personally feel that we would be much better served to stake our
morals on something lasting and unchanging like the Bible, but our
society does not.
 
The laws are designed to protect the weak from the strong.  They aren?t
always well drafted and certainly aren?t equally enforced, but that?s
their stated purpose for the most part, to level the playing field for
us all.
 
Peace,
 
Kelly
 

---
Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free.
Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com).
Version: 6.0.577 / Virus Database: 366 - Release Date: 2/3/04
 
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From SAOwen at TarrantCounty.com  Wed Feb 25 10:35:42 2004
From: SAOwen at TarrantCounty.com (SAOwen@TarrantCounty.com)
Date: Thu Mar 24 11:50:20 2005
Subject: [owen] civil unions
Message-ID: <E50788FA14C4D511906100065B04E8FC011E0735@itcrex004.tarrantcounty.com>

June:  As I understand it, marriage as a religious institution means a
spiritual joinder and commitment of two people according to the tenets of
their religious doctrines.  Marriage as a state-sanctioned institution means
that I get half of Donna's stuff!  Civil unions generally confer the exact
same legal rights, priviliges, and responsibilities as marriages, according
to the laws of the states that allow them.  Civil unions are basically
marriage by another name.

Dan:  You live in a state that has allowed civil unions for gay folks for 3
1/2 years.  How has your life, and the lives of your heterosexual friends,
been changed?

Cheers,
Steve

From SAOwen at TarrantCounty.com  Wed Feb 25 10:46:13 2004
From: SAOwen at TarrantCounty.com (SAOwen@TarrantCounty.com)
Date: Thu Mar 24 11:50:20 2005
Subject: [owen] civil unions
Message-ID: <E50788FA14C4D511906100065B04E8FC011E0736@itcrex004.tarrantcounty.com>

The following is from a site called "Wedding Tips for Same-Sex Partners":

 1. Two dresses, two tuxedos or one of each - be it two men or two women,
there are no hard and fast rules - wear what feels right for you.

*	*	*	*

10. Don't forget to get the thank you notes out in a timely fashion.
Remember to thank folks for gifts and also for any help with planning your
event. 



(Isn't it great that gays need to be reminded to send thank you notes?!!!)

From kmcassels at sbcw-law.com  Wed Feb 25 10:53:24 2004
From: kmcassels at sbcw-law.com (Kelly Mack Cassels)
Date: Thu Mar 24 11:50:20 2005
Subject: [owen] bigamists and incest practicioners
In-Reply-To: <000e01c3fbc0$f44d38e0$9989fea9@oemcomputer>
Message-ID: <004201c3fbb7$8796cda0$c793fea9@domain1>

Uncle Lawrence,
 
There is a group, and I cannot recall their name, it is some acronym,
that supports the legalization of sexual relations between men and boys.
They have a paper some psychiatrist or psychologist wrote that says such
relations are beneficial to the boys who need love from adult males that
they so often don?t receive from their fathers.  If you require
specifics, I?ll dig them up, otherwise I?d rather not perform that
search if I can avoid it.  To me this is the road we travel
.
 
Peace,
 
Kelly
 
-----Original Message-----
From: owen-bounces@owenconnections.com
[mailto:owen-bounces@owenconnections.com] On Behalf Of lawrence
Sent: Wednesday, February 25, 2004 10:01 AM
To: owen@owenconnections.com
Subject: [owen] bigamists and incest practicioners
 
Dan --
I'd love to read or hear the arguments made by the
bigamists in favor of making bigamy legal.  Ditto
for those who practice incest.   There are several hundred 
thousands of homosexuals who make strong arguments 
in favor of their unions being sanctioned by legal authorities.
I'm not aware of any organization that advocates
the legalizaztion of incest or bigamy.
Lawrence
 

---
Incoming mail is certified Virus Free.
Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com).
Version: 6.0.577 / Virus Database: 366 - Release Date: 2/3/04


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From joshbelbeck at comcast.net  Wed Feb 25 10:54:16 2004
From: joshbelbeck at comcast.net (Josh Belbeck)
Date: Thu Mar 24 11:50:20 2005
Subject: [Owen] bigamists and incest practicioners
In-Reply-To: <000e01c3fbc0$f44d38e0$9989fea9@oemcomputer>
Message-ID: <mailman.18.1111683020.15996.owen@owenconnections.com>

I know you didn't ask me..but I have been talking about this to my friends.

 

So here is a good example that encompasses homosexuality and polygamy. 

 

Lets say bob is bi-sexual.  Bob meets Bill at a bi-sexual hangout.  They get
along famously until they meet sue.  Well bob, bill & sue all fall in love
with each other.  They all want to marry each other..so that sue would have
2 husbands, and bob & bill would each have a husband and wife.  What do we
do here?  Is this argument strong enough for you?  

 

Of course..for me..none of the arguments for homosexual marriage are strong.
They can all be picked apart by someone as simple as me.  Only we would live
in a society where we would invent rights for a group of people just because
they choose to live that way.  

 

Josh

 

  _____  

From: owen-bounces@owenconnections.com
[mailto:owen-bounces@owenconnections.com] On Behalf Of lawrence
Sent: Wednesday, February 25, 2004 11:01 AM
To: owen@owenconnections.com
Subject: [owen] bigamists and incest practicioners

 

Dan --

I'd love to read or hear the arguments made by the

bigamists in favor of making bigamy legal.  Ditto

for those who practice incest.   There are several hundred 

thousands of homosexuals who make strong arguments 

in favor of their unions being sanctioned by legal authorities.

I'm not aware of any organization that advocates

the legalizaztion of incest or bigamy.

Lawrence

 

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From SAOwen at TarrantCounty.com  Wed Feb 25 11:07:17 2004
From: SAOwen at TarrantCounty.com (SAOwen@TarrantCounty.com)
Date: Thu Mar 24 11:50:20 2005
Subject: [Owen] bigamists and incest practicioners
Message-ID: <E50788FA14C4D511906100065B04E8FC011E0737@itcrex004.tarrantcounty.com>

Josh:  If Bob, Bill and Sue get married, does that mean three recliners need
to go into the den?  Who gets the remote control?  One set of in-laws is
enough;  imagine the horror if you have to pick from three sets of in-laws
regarding holiday planning.

 

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From Dowen at wcvt.com  Wed Feb 25 11:12:59 2004
From: Dowen at wcvt.com (Owen, Dan)
Date: Thu Mar 24 11:50:20 2005
Subject: [owen] civil unions
Message-ID: <3367C8BA324FD311AD06009027514849015F3DF3@tnet.wcvt.com>

Steve,
What makes you think I have friends?
Love Dan O...............

-----Original Message-----
From: owen-bounces@owenconnections.com
[mailto:owen-bounces@owenconnections.com]On Behalf Of
SAOwen@TarrantCounty.com
Sent: Wednesday, February 25, 2004 10:36 AM
To: owen@owenconnections.com
Subject: RE: [owen] civil unions


June:  As I understand it, marriage as a religious institution means a
spiritual joinder and commitment of two people according to the tenets of
their religious doctrines.  Marriage as a state-sanctioned institution means
that I get half of Donna's stuff!  Civil unions generally confer the exact
same legal rights, priviliges, and responsibilities as marriages, according
to the laws of the states that allow them.  Civil unions are basically
marriage by another name.

Dan:  You live in a state that has allowed civil unions for gay folks for 3
1/2 years.  How has your life, and the lives of your heterosexual friends,
been changed?

Cheers,
Steve
_______________________________________________
Owen mailing list
Owen@owenconnections.com
https://my.binhost.com/lists/listinfo/owen
Full archives at: http://archives.binhost.com/~owen

From jd.cassels at verizon.net  Wed Feb 25 11:52:49 2004
From: jd.cassels at verizon.net (Jeff Cassels)
Date: Thu Mar 24 11:50:20 2005
Subject: [owen] Gay Marriage/Adoption
Message-ID: <20040225165249.HMBU11926.out009.verizon.net@outgoing.verizon.net>


I disagree that gay marriage and gay adoption are separate issues. One comes with the other. No child should be placed in an artificial family with no female Mom or no male Dad.

What laws do no not legislate morality? We have laws against murder, rape, deadbeat dads and kidnapping.

Kelly - it's NAMBLA North American Man-Boy Love Association and I am on board with it being on the same path.

God did not put Adam and Steve in the garden. If he had, none of us would exist.

Says it better than I - http://www.family.org/cforum/fosi/marriage/ssuap/a0029575.cfm

Jeff
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From jcassels_2000 at hotmail.com  Wed Feb 25 11:22:13 2004
From: jcassels_2000 at hotmail.com (Jeff Cassels)
Date: Thu Mar 24 11:50:20 2005
Subject: [owen] just wondering
Message-ID: <BAY10-F49abwXVlbcFT00007515@hotmail.com>

I disagree.  With one comes the other.  No child deserves to be put in an 
artificial family.  God didn't start with Adam and Steve or none of us would 
exist today.

Says it pretty good... 
http://www.family.org/cforum/fosi/marriage/ssuap/a0029575.cfm



>From: Justin B. Newman <justin.newman@binhost.com>
>Reply-To: owen@owenconnections.com
>To: owen@owenconnections.com
>Subject: Re: [owen] just wondering
>Date: Tue, 24 Feb 2004 20:32:09 -0500
>
>
>On Feb 24, 2004, at 8:07 PM, Jeff Cassels wrote:
>
>>What does the divorce rate have to do with whether gay marriage is right
>>or wrong?  I don't connect the two.  We won't agree on this because the
>>basis for my beliefs on this matter is different than yours.  Do you
>>support gay adoption?  Shouldn't children have both a mom and a dad?
>>Gay couples cannot procreate without a third party.  It is not natural.
>>It is not what God intended based on the Bible.
>
>Jeff,
>
>The question of gay adoption is different from the question of gay 
>marriage.  It's a red herring.
>
>In my view, the question comes down to this: Do we legislate morality?
>
>If so, then whose view of morality do we legislate?  Within the lifetime of 
>my grandfather, Christian leaders have suggested biblical interpretations 
>suggesting that it's amoral for women to work, men and women of different 
>races to marry, non-whites to ride at the front of the bus, and more.  How 
>does the Government decide what's truly moral and not?
>
>I believe the government should stay out of morals.  I have no problem with 
>people choosing to protest at gay marriages, boycotting companies lead by 
>gays, or anything else.  That's a market decision.  It's not for the 
>government to get in the middle of, though.
>
>-jbn
>
>_______________________________________________
>Owen mailing list
>Owen@owenconnections.com
>https://my.binhost.com/lists/listinfo/owen
>Full archives at: http://archives.binhost.com/~owen

_________________________________________________________________
Watch high-quality video with fast playback at MSN Video. Free! 
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From joshbelbeck at comcast.net  Wed Feb 25 12:59:00 2004
From: joshbelbeck at comcast.net (Josh Belbeck)
Date: Thu Mar 24 11:50:20 2005
Subject: [Owen] bigamists and incest practicioners
In-Reply-To: <E50788FA14C4D511906100065B04E8FC011E0737@itcrex004.tarrantcounty.com>
Message-ID: <mailman.19.1111683020.15996.owen@owenconnections.com>

Either 3 recliners or a big couch.every man should know who gets the remote,
and you would have a lot of driving to do on thanksgiving..and a whole lot
of eating. :-)

 

Josh

 

  _____  

From: owen-bounces@owenconnections.com
[mailto:owen-bounces@owenconnections.com] On Behalf Of
SAOwen@TarrantCounty.com
Sent: Wednesday, February 25, 2004 10:07 AM
To: owen@owenconnections.com
Subject: RE: [Owen] bigamists and incest practicioners

 

Josh:  If Bob, Bill and Sue get married, does that mean three recliners need
to go into the den?  Who gets the remote control?  One set of in-laws is
enough;  imagine the horror if you have to pick from three sets of in-laws
regarding holiday planning.

 

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From rowen1 at triad.rr.com  Wed Feb 25 16:40:28 2004
From: rowen1 at triad.rr.com (Roger Owen)
Date: Thu Mar 24 11:50:20 2005
Subject: [owen] civil unions
References: <001301c3fbb9$13dd5620$9989fea9@oemcomputer>
	<B0456DD0-67A2-11D8-BB1A-000A95C48E6C@binhost.com>
Message-ID: <007e01c3fbe8$0019a150$6401a8c0@gayleowen>

I WOULD LIKE TO HEAR YOU JUSTIFY YOUR STATEMENT THAT MARRIAGE BETWEEN ONE
MAN AND ONE WOMAN IS NOT HISTORICALLY UNIVERSAL!

Roger

----- Original Message ----- 
From: "June Newman" <june@binhost.com>
To: <owen@owenconnections.com>
Sent: Wednesday, February 25, 2004 9:55 AM
Subject: Re: [owen] civil unions


Steve, or anyone who knows, is there a legal distinction between
marriage and civil unions?

It seems to me that marriage is a cultural and religious concept and
that the state has appropriate interest only in the civil arrangement.
If law provides for certain status of couples, how can it distinguish
one couple from another based on anything of a private nature?  The
state does not examine heterosexual couples concerning the nature of
their relationship.  A church can offer a religious ceremony of
marriage to whomever it wishes under whatever notions of God's
intentions it wishes.  That should not be confused with the civil state
of marriage.  The line between the two has become quite blurred and it
should not be.  Churches do not have the right to impose religious
rules on individuals nor on the state.

Marriage as the exclusive right of one man and one woman is not
historically universal.  And if it were, cultures evolve and abandon
longstanding institutions such as slavery or male only voting
privilege.  The notion of state as an inforcer of religious ideals is
past due for rejection as well.   A church can herd the sheep into
whatever fold they can manage to get them into, but they should do it
without the stick of civil law.

Now I'm going to duck the fire and pack my bags.  Owen finishes the
Missouri bar exam, for better or worse, this afternoon in Jeff City.
He, Zuzana, Justin, and I will all meet at the airport in Prague
tomorrow by noon for a visit with Zu's family.    I'll return to
Lawrence on Mar 8.

June


On Feb 25, 2004, at 10:04 AM, lawrence wrote:

> If I had my way, civil unions or some such arrangement, providing
> exactly the same legal protections and benefits as marraige,
> would be available to people including homosexuals.
> Lawrence
> _______________________________________________
> Owen mailing list
> Owen@owenconnections.com
> https://my.binhost.com/lists/listinfo/owen
> Full archives at: http://archives.binhost.com/~owen

_______________________________________________
Owen mailing list
Owen@owenconnections.com
https://my.binhost.com/lists/listinfo/owen
Full archives at: http://archives.binhost.com/~owen


From the_ahs at hometownsolutions.net  Wed Feb 25 16:49:28 2004
From: the_ahs at hometownsolutions.net (Arne Kildegaard)
Date: Thu Mar 24 11:50:20 2005
Subject: [owen] Gay Marriage/Adoption
In-Reply-To: <20040225165249.HMBU11926.out009.verizon.net@outgoing.verizon.net>
References: <20040225165249.HMBU11926.out009.verizon.net@outgoing.verizon.net>
Message-ID: <403D1868.6070506@hometownsolutions.net>

Jeff,
Here's a quote from the article you linked:
"And this gets us to why same-sex families are actually cruel ? they 
intentionally deny every child they touch either their biological mother 
or father ? all in the interest of fulfilling adult desire."

This line is a summing up that comes about mid-way through the article.

It holds as one proposition that children raised by parents who are 
neither one a biological parent is cruel. Surely you, Jeff, do not hold 
with this proposition. It is offensive.

It holds as another proposition that gay couples are couples only 
because they are fulfilling their desire. What balderdash. Desire can be 
fulfilled in many ways without two people having to live together as 
committed partners, especially when living together is considered by so 
many in our society to be sinful or offensive or wrong. Gay couples live 
as partners because they love and respect one another, because they have 
made the choice to be faithful to one another, because they enjoy one 
another's company and plan to continue doing so for a very long 
time--exactly the same reasons that heterosexual couples live as partners.

I agree with you that some laws legislate morality. We've seen listed 
here: stealing, rape, murder, kidnapping, and others. To my knowledge, 
there is no religion that favors any of these actions. Some morals are 
universal, they are held by any and all regions, they are held by those 
who belong to no religion.

Your god put Adam and Eve in the garden. Buddha did not. The Norse gods 
did not. The Greek gods did not. The Maori gods did not. This argument 
only works if you're talking only to people of the faith that believes 
that Adam and Eve were real people.

--Athena

Jeff Cassels wrote:

> I disagree that gay marriage and gay adoption are separate issues. One 
> comes with the other. No child should be placed in an artificial 
> family with no female Mom or no male Dad.
>
> What laws do no not legislate morality? We have laws against murder, 
> rape, deadbeat dads and kidnapping.
>
> Kelly - it's NAMBLA North American Man-Boy Love Association and I am 
> on board with it being on the same path.
>
> God did not put Adam and Steve in the garden. If he had, none of us 
> would exist.
>
> Says it better than I - 
> http://www.family.org/cforum/fosi/marriage/ssuap/a0029575.cfm
>
> Jeff
>
>------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
>_______________________________________________
>Owen mailing list
>Owen@owenconnections.com
>https://my.binhost.com/lists/listinfo/owen
>Full archives at: http://archives.binhost.com/~owen
>  
>


From homerowen at earthlink.net  Wed Feb 25 17:14:04 2004
From: homerowen at earthlink.net (Homer Owen)
Date: Thu Mar 24 11:50:20 2005
Subject: [owen] bigamists and incest practicioners
References: <000e01c3fbc0$f44d38e0$9989fea9@oemcomputer>
Message-ID: <008c01c3fbec$aefd5f00$a376fea9@compaq06>

If we continue to attack and destroy the morals of our present society we will find the day when we will have the bigamists and people in favor of incest will come out of the closets and demand their rights.
I can remember our Mother asking me 40 years ago to explain to her what a homosexual was.  Just think what has happened in the past 40 years on this subject. Homosexual marriage is wrong because God says it is wrong.  Period. This is the same God that is at the foundation of this great nation.  When the founders of this nation were praying and seeking divine guidance for wisdom in order to build our nation it was to the God of Abraham.  This is the God that our nation was founded on.  
Homer

----- Original Message ----- 
  From: lawrence 
  To: owen@owenconnections.com 
  Sent: Wednesday, February 25, 2004 11:00 AM
  Subject: [owen] bigamists and incest practicioners


  Dan --
  I'd love to read or hear the arguments made by the
  bigamists in favor of making bigamy legal.  Ditto
  for those who practice incest.   There are several hundred 
  thousands of homosexuals who make strong arguments 
  in favor of their unions being sanctioned by legal authorities.
  I'm not aware of any organization that advocates
  the legalizaztion of incest or bigamy.
  Lawrence



------------------------------------------------------------------------------


  _______________________________________________
  Owen mailing list
  Owen@owenconnections.com
  https://my.binhost.com/lists/listinfo/owen
  Full archives at: http://archives.binhost.com/~owen
-------------- next part --------------
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From m.owen at instarservices.com  Wed Feb 25 17:30:01 2004
From: m.owen at instarservices.com (Mark Owen)
Date: Thu Mar 24 11:50:20 2005
Subject: [owen] just wondering
In-Reply-To: <200402251151.i1PBpa0D025181@ghlin4.greenhills.net>
Message-ID: <mailman.20.1111683020.15996.owen@owenconnections.com>

Jack - Do you really think there are not enough married men and women
couples willing to adopt children that we need to put these kids in same sex
relationship families? Love, Mark 

-----Original Message-----
From: owen-bounces@owenconnections.com
[mailto:owen-bounces@owenconnections.com] On Behalf Of Jack
Sent: Wednesday, February 25, 2004 6:03 AM
To: owen@owenconnections.com
Subject: [owen] just wondering

      Jeff;  To me   Divorce of state sanctioned married couples of 
man and woman, has a lot to do with the argument for  state sanctioned
marriage between couples of the same sex. The President talks of the marrige
of same sex couples as a threat to the institution of marriage, 40% divorce
is also a threat to the institution of marriage. Yes i am for  same sex
couples adopting children. It is better for a child to be loved by a couple
of the same sex than to feel like it is loved by no one by being thrown from
one person to the other person, going to court to decides who gets them.
There are many  opposite sex couples that have to have a third party to
conceive children. 
         Love you all Jack

_______________________________________________
Owen mailing list
Owen@owenconnections.com
https://my.binhost.com/lists/listinfo/owen
Full archives at: http://archives.binhost.com/~owen



From jcassels_2000 at hotmail.com  Wed Feb 25 17:31:14 2004
From: jcassels_2000 at hotmail.com (Jeff Cassels)
Date: Thu Mar 24 11:50:20 2005
Subject: [owen] Gay Marriage/Adoption
Message-ID: <BAY10-F86G8mkwhPeZa00008814@hotmail.com>

Arne, thanks for the feedback...

I do hold to the proposition.  If my sons were growing up with no Father, 
but had two Moms - that is cruel. Denying them a Father is cruel.  Children 
need Fathers and Mothers.  Why should they be denied that?

Whatever god you choose to believe in had to start with male and female 
somewhere. That's logical and natural.

Thanks,
Jeff

>From: Arne Kildegaard <the_ahs@hometownsolutions.net>
>Reply-To: owen@owenconnections.com
>To: owen@owenconnections.com
>Subject: Re: [owen] Gay Marriage/Adoption
>Date: Wed, 25 Feb 2004 15:49:28 -0600
>
>Jeff,
>Here's a quote from the article you linked:
>"And this gets us to why same-sex families are actually cruel – they 
>intentionally deny every child they touch either their biological mother or 
>father – all in the interest of fulfilling adult desire."
>
>This line is a summing up that comes about mid-way through the article.
>
>It holds as one proposition that children raised by parents who are neither 
>one a biological parent is cruel. Surely you, Jeff, do not hold with this 
>proposition. It is offensive.
>
>It holds as another proposition that gay couples are couples only because 
>they are fulfilling their desire. What balderdash. Desire can be fulfilled 
>in many ways without two people having to live together as committed 
>partners, especially when living together is considered by so many in our 
>society to be sinful or offensive or wrong. Gay couples live as partners 
>because they love and respect one another, because they have made the 
>choice to be faithful to one another, because they enjoy one another's 
>company and plan to continue doing so for a very long time--exactly the 
>same reasons that heterosexual couples live as partners.
>
>I agree with you that some laws legislate morality. We've seen listed here: 
>stealing, rape, murder, kidnapping, and others. To my knowledge, there is 
>no religion that favors any of these actions. Some morals are universal, 
>they are held by any and all regions, they are held by those who belong to 
>no religion.
>
>Your god put Adam and Eve in the garden. Buddha did not. The Norse gods did 
>not. The Greek gods did not. The Maori gods did not. This argument only 
>works if you're talking only to people of the faith that believes that Adam 
>and Eve were real people.
>
>--Athena
>
>Jeff Cassels wrote:
>
>>I disagree that gay marriage and gay adoption are separate issues. One 
>>comes with the other. No child should be placed in an artificial family 
>>with no female Mom or no male Dad.
>>
>>What laws do no not legislate morality? We have laws against murder, rape, 
>>deadbeat dads and kidnapping.
>>
>>Kelly - it's NAMBLA North American Man-Boy Love Association and I am on 
>>board with it being on the same path.
>>
>>God did not put Adam and Steve in the garden. If he had, none of us would 
>>exist.
>>
>>Says it better than I - 
>>http://www.family.org/cforum/fosi/marriage/ssuap/a0029575.cfm
>>
>>Jeff
>>
>>------------------------------------------------------------------------
>>
>>_______________________________________________
>>Owen mailing list
>>Owen@owenconnections.com
>>https://my.binhost.com/lists/listinfo/owen
>>Full archives at: http://archives.binhost.com/~owen
>>
>>
>
>_______________________________________________
>Owen mailing list
>Owen@owenconnections.com
>https://my.binhost.com/lists/listinfo/owen
>Full archives at: http://archives.binhost.com/~owen

_________________________________________________________________
Find and compare great deals on Broadband access at the MSN High-Speed 
Marketplace. http://click.atdmt.com/AVE/go/onm00200360ave/direct/01/


From the_ahs at hometownsolutions.net  Wed Feb 25 18:35:22 2004
From: the_ahs at hometownsolutions.net (Arne Kildegaard)
Date: Thu Mar 24 11:50:20 2005
Subject: [owen] Gay Marriage/Adoption
In-Reply-To: <BAY10-F86G8mkwhPeZa00008814@hotmail.com>
References: <BAY10-F86G8mkwhPeZa00008814@hotmail.com>
Message-ID: <403D313A.8070406@hometownsolutions.net>

Jeff,
It's Athena here, though the email "From" line says Arne. Sorry for the 
confusion.

You missed the author's point. Look at what he wrote again. He's 
suggesting that it is cruel when children are in families in which one 
or both of the parents are not biological parents. Therefore, it is 
cruel for children to grow up with adopted parents. A student I had once 
was living in a home where neither of his custodial parents were 
biological because his biological parents had divorced and then his 
biological parent and step-parent had divorced and he ended up with two 
step-parents. He was no less loved and in fact ended up in a home with 
two loving parents, where previously he had lived in homes with parents 
who didn't love one another and things were unpleasant.

I stand by what I said before: surely you don't agree with this argument.

I would find your second point to be "logical and natural" as an 
argument if and only if I believed that a god had anything to do with 
the first procreating couple.

--Athena

Jeff Cassels wrote:

> Arne, thanks for the feedback...
>
> I do hold to the proposition. If my sons were growing up with no 
> Father, but had two Moms - that is cruel. Denying them a Father is 
> cruel. Children need Fathers and Mothers. Why should they be denied that?
>
> Whatever god you choose to believe in had to start with male and 
> female somewhere. That's logical and natural.
>
> Thanks,
> Jeff
>
>> From: Arne Kildegaard <the_ahs@hometownsolutions.net>
>> Reply-To: owen@owenconnections.com
>> To: owen@owenconnections.com
>> Subject: Re: [owen] Gay Marriage/Adoption
>> Date: Wed, 25 Feb 2004 15:49:28 -0600
>>
>> Jeff,
>> Here's a quote from the article you linked:
>> "And this gets us to why same-sex families are actually cruel ? they 
>> intentionally deny every child they touch either their biological 
>> mother or father ? all in the interest of fulfilling adult desire."
>>
>> This line is a summing up that comes about mid-way through the article.
>>
>> It holds as one proposition that children raised by parents who are 
>> neither one a biological parent is cruel. Surely you, Jeff, do not 
>> hold with this proposition. It is offensive.
>>
>> It holds as another proposition that gay couples are couples only 
>> because they are fulfilling their desire. What balderdash. Desire can 
>> be fulfilled in many ways without two people having to live together 
>> as committed partners, especially when living together is considered 
>> by so many in our society to be sinful or offensive or wrong. Gay 
>> couples live as partners because they love and respect one another, 
>> because they have made the choice to be faithful to one another, 
>> because they enjoy one another's company and plan to continue doing 
>> so for a very long time--exactly the same reasons that heterosexual 
>> couples live as partners.
>>
>> I agree with you that some laws legislate morality. We've seen listed 
>> here: stealing, rape, murder, kidnapping, and others. To my 
>> knowledge, there is no religion that favors any of these actions. 
>> Some morals are universal, they are held by any and all regions, they 
>> are held by those who belong to no religion.
>>
>> Your god put Adam and Eve in the garden. Buddha did not. The Norse 
>> gods did not. The Greek gods did not. The Maori gods did not. This 
>> argument only works if you're talking only to people of the faith 
>> that believes that Adam and Eve were real people.
>>
>> --Athena
>>
>> Jeff Cassels wrote:
>>
>>> I disagree that gay marriage and gay adoption are separate issues. 
>>> One comes with the other. No child should be placed in an artificial 
>>> family with no female Mom or no male Dad.
>>>
>>> What laws do no not legislate morality? We have laws against murder, 
>>> rape, deadbeat dads and kidnapping.
>>>
>>> Kelly - it's NAMBLA North American Man-Boy Love Association and I am 
>>> on board with it being on the same path.
>>>
>>> God did not put Adam and Steve in the garden. If he had, none of us 
>>> would exist.
>>>
>>> Says it better than I - 
>>> http://www.family.org/cforum/fosi/marriage/ssuap/a0029575.cfm
>>>
>>> Jeff
>>>
>>> ------------------------------------------------------------------------ 
>>>
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> Owen mailing list
>>> Owen@owenconnections.com
>>> https://my.binhost.com/lists/listinfo/owen
>>> Full archives at: http://archives.binhost.com/~owen
>>>
>>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> Owen mailing list
>> Owen@owenconnections.com
>> https://my.binhost.com/lists/listinfo/owen
>> Full archives at: http://archives.binhost.com/~owen
>
>
> _________________________________________________________________
> Find and compare great deals on Broadband access at the MSN High-Speed 
> Marketplace. http://click.atdmt.com/AVE/go/onm00200360ave/direct/01/
>
> _______________________________________________
> Owen mailing list
> Owen@owenconnections.com
> https://my.binhost.com/lists/listinfo/owen
> Full archives at: http://archives.binhost.com/~owen
>


From the_ahs at hometownsolutions.net  Wed Feb 25 18:37:28 2004
From: the_ahs at hometownsolutions.net (Arne Kildegaard)
Date: Thu Mar 24 11:50:20 2005
Subject: [owen] bigamists and incest practicioners
In-Reply-To: <008c01c3fbec$aefd5f00$a376fea9@compaq06>
References: <000e01c3fbc0$f44d38e0$9989fea9@oemcomputer>
	<008c01c3fbec$aefd5f00$a376fea9@compaq06>
Message-ID: <403D31B8.6060403@hometownsolutions.net>

Uncle Homer,
The morals of our present society that are defended when gays and 
lesbians are given the right to marry are: love, respect, fidelity, 
community, commitment, honor, nobility of spirit.
--Athena

Homer Owen wrote:

> If we continue to attack and destroy the morals of our present society 
> we will find the day when we will have the bigamists and people in 
> favor of incest will come out of the closets and demand their rights.
> I can remember our Mother asking me 40 years ago to explain to her 
> what a homosexual was.  Just think what has happened in the past 40 
> years on this subject. Homosexual marriage is wrong because God says 
> it is wrong.  Period. This is the same God that is at the foundation 
> of this great nation.  When the founders of this nation were praying 
> and seeking divine guidance for wisdom in order to build our nation it 
> was to the God of Abraham.  This is the God that our nation was 
> founded on. 
> Homer
>  
> ----- Original Message -----
>
>     *From:* lawrence <mailto:klowen@hsnp.com>
>     *To:* owen@owenconnections.com <mailto:owen@owenconnections.com>
>     *Sent:* Wednesday, February 25, 2004 11:00 AM
>     *Subject:* [owen] bigamists and incest practicioners
>
>     Dan --
>     I'd love to read or hear the arguments made by the
>     bigamists in favor of making bigamy legal.  Ditto
>     for those who practice incest.   There are several hundred
>     thousands of homosexuals who make strong arguments
>     in favor of their unions being sanctioned by legal authorities.
>     I'm not aware of any organization that advocates
>     the legalizaztion of incest or bigamy.
>     Lawrence
>      
>
>     ------------------------------------------------------------------------
>     _______________________________________________
>     Owen mailing list
>     Owen@owenconnections.com
>     https://my.binhost.com/lists/listinfo/owen
>     Full archives at: http://archives.binhost.com/~owen
>
>------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
>_______________________________________________
>Owen mailing list
>Owen@owenconnections.com
>https://my.binhost.com/lists/listinfo/owen
>Full archives at: http://archives.binhost.com/~owen
>  
>


From jd.cassels at verizon.net  Wed Feb 25 18:57:02 2004
From: jd.cassels at verizon.net (Jeff Cassels)
Date: Thu Mar 24 11:50:21 2005
Subject: [owen] Gay Marriage/Adoption
In-Reply-To: <403D313A.8070406@hometownsolutions.net>
Message-ID: <006001c3fbfb$104a6560$28603f04@Cassels>

Athena,

I think you missed the point.  The whole intent of piece was a case
against same-sex marriage, it was not about adoption by heterosexual
couples.  He did not say that say it was cruel for children to grow up
with adopted parents.  He said same sex families are cruel.  You are off
on a rabbit trail.  I will agree that there may have been a mistatement
in one sentence that sent you there.

Even if we crawled out of the swamp.  It still takes male and female.

Jeff

-----Original Message-----
From: owen-bounces@owenconnections.com
[mailto:owen-bounces@owenconnections.com] On Behalf Of Arne Kildegaard
Sent: Wednesday, February 25, 2004 5:35 PM
To: owen@owenconnections.com
Subject: Re: [owen] Gay Marriage/Adoption


Jeff,
It's Athena here, though the email "From" line says Arne. Sorry for the 
confusion.

You missed the author's point. Look at what he wrote again. He's 
suggesting that it is cruel when children are in families in which one 
or both of the parents are not biological parents. Therefore, it is 
cruel for children to grow up with adopted parents. A student I had once

was living in a home where neither of his custodial parents were 
biological because his biological parents had divorced and then his 
biological parent and step-parent had divorced and he ended up with two 
step-parents. He was no less loved and in fact ended up in a home with 
two loving parents, where previously he had lived in homes with parents 
who didn't love one another and things were unpleasant.

I stand by what I said before: surely you don't agree with this
argument.

I would find your second point to be "logical and natural" as an 
argument if and only if I believed that a god had anything to do with 
the first procreating couple.

--Athena

Jeff Cassels wrote:

> Arne, thanks for the feedback...
>
> I do hold to the proposition. If my sons were growing up with no
> Father, but had two Moms - that is cruel. Denying them a Father is 
> cruel. Children need Fathers and Mothers. Why should they be denied
that?
>
> Whatever god you choose to believe in had to start with male and
> female somewhere. That's logical and natural.
>
> Thanks,
> Jeff
>
>> From: Arne Kildegaard <the_ahs@hometownsolutions.net>
>> Reply-To: owen@owenconnections.com
>> To: owen@owenconnections.com
>> Subject: Re: [owen] Gay Marriage/Adoption
>> Date: Wed, 25 Feb 2004 15:49:28 -0600
>>
>> Jeff,
>> Here's a quote from the article you linked:
>> "And this gets us to why same-sex families are actually cruel - they
>> intentionally deny every child they touch either their biological 
>> mother or father - all in the interest of fulfilling adult desire."
>>
>> This line is a summing up that comes about mid-way through the 
>> article.
>>
>> It holds as one proposition that children raised by parents who are
>> neither one a biological parent is cruel. Surely you, Jeff, do not 
>> hold with this proposition. It is offensive.
>>
>> It holds as another proposition that gay couples are couples only
>> because they are fulfilling their desire. What balderdash. Desire can

>> be fulfilled in many ways without two people having to live together 
>> as committed partners, especially when living together is considered 
>> by so many in our society to be sinful or offensive or wrong. Gay 
>> couples live as partners because they love and respect one another, 
>> because they have made the choice to be faithful to one another, 
>> because they enjoy one another's company and plan to continue doing 
>> so for a very long time--exactly the same reasons that heterosexual 
>> couples live as partners.
>>
>> I agree with you that some laws legislate morality. We've seen listed
>> here: stealing, rape, murder, kidnapping, and others. To my 
>> knowledge, there is no religion that favors any of these actions. 
>> Some morals are universal, they are held by any and all regions, they

>> are held by those who belong to no religion.
>>
>> Your god put Adam and Eve in the garden. Buddha did not. The Norse
>> gods did not. The Greek gods did not. The Maori gods did not. This 
>> argument only works if you're talking only to people of the faith 
>> that believes that Adam and Eve were real people.
>>
>> --Athena
>>
>> Jeff Cassels wrote:
>>
>>> I disagree that gay marriage and gay adoption are separate issues.
>>> One comes with the other. No child should be placed in an artificial

>>> family with no female Mom or no male Dad.
>>>
>>> What laws do no not legislate morality? We have laws against murder,
>>> rape, deadbeat dads and kidnapping.
>>>
>>> Kelly - it's NAMBLA North American Man-Boy Love Association and I am
>>> on board with it being on the same path.
>>>
>>> God did not put Adam and Steve in the garden. If he had, none of us
>>> would exist.
>>>
>>> Says it better than I -
>>> http://www.family.org/cforum/fosi/marriage/ssuap/a0029575.cfm
>>>
>>> Jeff
>>>
>>> --------------------------------------------------------------------
>>> ----
>>>
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> Owen mailing list
>>> Owen@owenconnections.com https://my.binhost.com/lists/listinfo/owen
>>> Full archives at: http://archives.binhost.com/~owen
>>>
>>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> Owen mailing list
>> Owen@owenconnections.com
>> https://my.binhost.com/lists/listinfo/owen
>> Full archives at: http://archives.binhost.com/~owen
>
>
> _________________________________________________________________
> Find and compare great deals on Broadband access at the MSN High-Speed

> Marketplace. http://click.atdmt.com/AVE/go/onm00200360ave/direct/01/
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> _______________________________________________
> Owen mailing list
> Owen@owenconnections.com
> https://my.binhost.com/lists/listinfo/owen
> Full archives at: http://archives.binhost.com/~owen
>

_______________________________________________
Owen mailing list
Owen@owenconnections.com
https://my.binhost.com/lists/listinfo/owen
Full archives at: http://archives.binhost.com/~owen


From rowen1 at triad.rr.com  Wed Feb 25 16:45:41 2004
From: rowen1 at triad.rr.com (Roger Owen)
Date: Thu Mar 24 11:50:21 2005
Subject: [owen] Liberals vs. conservatives
Message-ID: <000001c3fc08$98967140$6401a8c0@gayleowen>

Have you ever noticed that when a person is accused of being a liberal, the accusser gets usually gets called a bigot, a racist, a homphobe, etc.a great majority of the time.  Most journalists or politicians would never accept that label.  One politician has recently tried to do that, and he is back home in Vermont and in debt another $500,000.

Ask a conservative if he is a conservative, and watch out.  We are proud to be conservatives and have faiths and beliefs to stand on.  

Interesting comparison.............
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From Amnotmyown at aol.com  Wed Feb 25 20:58:47 2004
From: Amnotmyown at aol.com (Amnotmyown@aol.com)
Date: Thu Mar 24 11:50:21 2005
Subject: [owen] The Passion of the Christ
Message-ID: <1a4.20644b80.2d6eacd7@aol.com>

Dear Family--having just return from seeing the movie The Passion of the 
Christ I find that for one of the very few times in my life I have no words to 
express how my heart has been affected by a movie.  I would encourage every adult 
in this family to go.  Dian
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From jd.cassels at verizon.net  Wed Feb 25 21:36:12 2004
From: jd.cassels at verizon.net (Jeff Cassels)
Date: Thu Mar 24 11:50:21 2005
Subject: [owen] The Passion of the Christ
In-Reply-To: <1a4.20644b80.2d6eacd7@aol.com>
Message-ID: <007501c3fc11$4c860140$28603f04@Cassels>

I have tickets for Friday afternoon.  Can't wait!  

-----Original Message-----
From: owen-bounces@owenconnections.com
[mailto:owen-bounces@owenconnections.com] On Behalf Of
Amnotmyown@aol.com
Sent: Wednesday, February 25, 2004 7:59 PM
To: owen@owenconnections.com
Subject: [owen] The Passion of the Christ


Dear Family--having just return from seeing the movie The Passion of the
Christ I find that for one of the very few times in my life I have no
words to express how my heart has been affected by a movie.  I would
encourage every adult in this family to go.  Dian 

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From klowen at hsnp.com  Thu Feb 26 08:32:44 2004
From: klowen at hsnp.com (lawrence)
Date: Thu Mar 24 11:50:21 2005
Subject: [owen] the other
Message-ID: <000d01c3fc6d$2124cac0$9989fea9@oemcomputer>

Dan --
I grew up being told that queers were different, were other than US  I heard jokes, made
jokes.  I met queers while attending Hardin-Simmons, while hitchhiking and in two 
bookstores in Abilene.  I continued to think that queers were unnatural, were other, and
could be fixed by proper training.  By the time I was thirty-five I thought differently, and
did so because the queers I worked with and taught convinced me that my earlier habits
of thinking were ignorant and mean spirited.  It became crystal clear to me that no one would 
choose to be isolated, humiliated, beaten, and insulted as happened to queers in the United States.  
I knew men who bragged about going queer bashing.  That homophobic passion perplexed
me then and still does.    When I was thirty something I worked with a lesbian.  Earlier, I 
knew that any lesbian who would spend some quality time with me would be cured of her
unfortunate condition and learn to know the proper relation between men and women.  
Working with that lesbian, laughing with her, listening to her, helped me to understand that
homosexuals are not other, are not unnatural, are not perverted.  

When I was forty it seemed to me that queers should go ahead and do their thing, 
openly if they wanted, but they shouldn't marry or hook up legally.  But I kept listening to
queers, some of them my friends, and reading the fiction and non-fiction written by openly 
queer writers.  It dawned on me about 20 to 25 years ago that queers should enjoy exactly
the same legal benefits that straights enjoy.  Period.  The exact same.  If a queer couple 
wants to join in a civil union that gives them the legal benefits straights gain from being
married,  every legal and governmental agency in the country should protect them and
guarantee them those benefits.  Period.  

Those polygamists out in Utah want polygamy because their religion tells them to want it.
People into religion want and expect all manner of thing that us heathens do without.
I have no religious basis or reason for thinking as I do about queers.  I have lived 72 years
now, and during some of those years I have paid attention to my neighbors who do their
sexual stuff unlike the way I do mine.    Doesn't make them other, or unnatural, or perverted,
or deranged.  

I've never met an advocate of pedophilia or bestiality.  I met Mormons when I taught and 
studied out in Wyoming, but I never heard one advocate polygamy.  Have you met any
advocates of polygamy, pedophilia, or bestiality?  Have you read any arguments in favor of
their sexual practices?  I knew a couple of families in Minnesota that had a history 
of incest.  They did the best they could to keep their sorry practices private, secret.  

Happy Thursday --
Lawrence


l
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From klowen at hsnp.com  Thu Feb 26 09:46:17 2004
From: klowen at hsnp.com (lawrence)
Date: Thu Mar 24 11:50:21 2005
Subject: [owen] Liberals vs. conservatives
References: <000001c3fc08$98967140$6401a8c0@gayleowen>
Message-ID: <001701c3fc77$4b449740$9989fea9@oemcomputer>

Roger --
I think you issued an invite to some mud slinging, but I'm
not sure.  Could you give us an example, concretely, of
what you have in mind.
 Lawrence
  ----- Original Message ----- 
  From: Roger Owen 
  To: owen@owenconnections.com 
  Sent: Wednesday, February 25, 2004 1:45 PM
  Subject: [owen] Liberals vs. conservatives


  Have you ever noticed that when a person is accused of being a liberal, the accusser gets usually gets called a bigot, a racist, a homphobe, etc.a great majority of the time.  Most journalists or politicians would never accept that label.  One politician has recently tried to do that, and he is back home in Vermont and in debt another $500,000.
   
  Ask a conservative if he is a conservative, and watch out.  We are proud to be conservatives and have faiths and beliefs to stand on.  
   
  Interesting comparison.............


------------------------------------------------------------------------------


  _______________________________________________
  Owen mailing list
  Owen@owenconnections.com
  https://my.binhost.com/lists/listinfo/owen
  Full archives at: http://archives.binhost.com/~owen

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From Dowen at wcvt.com  Thu Feb 26 07:58:15 2004
From: Dowen at wcvt.com (Owen, Dan)
Date: Thu Mar 24 11:50:21 2005
Subject: [owen] the other
Message-ID: <3367C8BA324FD311AD06009027514849015F3DF5@tnet.wcvt.com>

Lawrence,
 
I carry little or no animosity towards queers.  I truly believe that how
consenting adults choose to enjoy sex behind closed doors is their business
as long as it does not hurt others.  Because of Vermont's civil union law I
would dare say I deal with more openly queer folks on a daily basis than
most.  I also believe that queers need the protections our government gives
through a recognition of their living arrangement, just don't call it
marriage.  In addition they shouldn't try to redefine religions either.  The
notion that some are gay-Catholics is oxymoronic.  Go start your own church
and worship a god that you think allows for your sexual preference, quit
trying to foist your beliefs on others.  Same thing for the Boy Scouts.  The
rules were clear about homosexuality.  Go start another organization, quit
trying to change others to agree with you.  What happened to diversity of
opinions in this country?  Why are those who want to protect the sanctity of
marriage required to seek a constitutional amendment to define marriage as
something we have all known for a very long time?  Why aren't the queers
required to seek a majority to redefine marriage rather than using the
tyranny of the judicial minority to gain religious rights.  Yes, I did say
religious rights because in my mind marriage is and has for a very long time
been defined by almost all religions as a something between one man and one
woman, period.  The proponents of same sex marriage want to redefine a
religious institution and are using the equal rights, equal protection
argument to achieve their agenda.  Why aren't you just as upset by this as
you are at President Bush giving the rich tax breaks?
 
  I support civil unions not only for same sex couples but also for couples
who need to obtain the protections the government offers and do not want a
religious marriage.  Civil unions would be a great option for heathen,
opposite sex couples.   A part of the early drafts of the Vermont civil
union law was the ability of an opposite sex couple to enter into a civil
union to obtain medical and all the other benefits accorded by the law.  The
example would be an elderly person and a guardian, no sexual activity but a
need for government benefits.  Unfortunately that part of the law was not
passed.  Uncle Jack mentioned the divorce rate in an earlier post.  Guess
what, civil unions break up in Vermont at the same rate as marriages.  
 
By the way what is wrong with bigamy?  It's not my cup of tea but if others
want to do it so what.  Seems the Mormons were all for it not so long ago
until our government stuck it's nose into this religious arrangement.
Doesn't the Bible speak about multiple wives?  I have a good friend who runs
a phone company in rural Utah and he indicates there are numerous households
with one man and multiple female partners out there.  As long as they keep a
low profile no one bothers them.  As long as there is no under age folks
involved why not carve out some equal rights for them too?
 
Love Dan O..................            

[Owen, Dan] 
 -----Original Message-----
From: owen-bounces@owenconnections.com
[mailto:owen-bounces@owenconnections.com]On Behalf Of lawrence
Sent: Thursday, February 26, 2004 8:33 AM
To: owen@owenconnections.com
Subject: [owen] the other



Dan --
I grew up being told that queers were different, were other than US  I heard
jokes, made
jokes.  I met queers while attending Hardin-Simmons, while hitchhiking and
in two 
bookstores in Abilene.  I continued to think that queers were unnatural,
were other, and
could be fixed by proper training.  By the time I was thirty-five I thought
differently, and
did so because the queers I worked with and taught convinced me that my
earlier habits
of thinking were ignorant and mean spirited.  It became crystal clear to me
that no one would 
choose to be isolated, humiliated, beaten, and insulted as happened to
queers in the United States.  
I knew men who bragged about going queer bashing.  That homophobic passion
perplexed
me then and still does.    When I was thirty something I worked with a
lesbian.  Earlier, I 
knew that any lesbian who would spend some quality time with me would be
cured of her
unfortunate condition and learn to know the proper relation between men and
women.  
Working with that lesbian, laughing with her, listening to her, helped me to
understand that
homosexuals are not other, are not unnatural, are not perverted.  
 
When I was forty it seemed to me that queers should go ahead and do their
thing, 
openly if they wanted, but they shouldn't marry or hook up legally.  But I
kept listening to
queers, some of them my friends, and reading the fiction and non-fiction
written by openly 
queer writers.  It dawned on me about 20 to 25 years ago that queers should
enjoy exactly
the same legal benefits that straights enjoy.  Period.  The exact same.  If
a queer couple 
wants to join in a civil union that gives them the legal benefits straights
gain from being
married,  every legal and governmental agency in the country should protect
them and
guarantee them those benefits.  Period.  
 
Those polygamists out in Utah want polygamy because their religion tells
them to want it.
People into religion want and expect all manner of thing that us heathens do
without.
I have no religious basis or reason for thinking as I do about queers.  I
have lived 72 years
now, and during some of those years I have paid attention to my neighbors
who do their
sexual stuff unlike the way I do mine.    Doesn't make them other, or
unnatural, or perverted,
or deranged.  
 
I've never met an advocate of pedophilia or bestiality.  I met Mormons when
I taught and 
studied out in Wyoming, but I never heard one advocate polygamy.  Have you
met any
advocates of polygamy, pedophilia, or bestiality?  Have you read any
arguments in favor of
their sexual practices?  I knew a couple of families in Minnesota that had a
history 
of incest.  They did the best they could to keep their sorry practices
private, secret.  
 
Happy Thursday --
Lawrence
 
 
l

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From klowen at hsnp.com  Thu Feb 26 11:09:23 2004
From: klowen at hsnp.com (lawrence)
Date: Thu Mar 24 11:50:21 2005
Subject: [owen] discrimination
Message-ID: <000d01c3fc82$e70ad260$9989fea9@oemcomputer>

Dan --
I hereby nominate you to head up the Freedom To Discriminate 
lobby.  You will persuade legislators to pass enabling legislation,
guaranteeing organizations the right to discriminate.  If a church
wants to discriminate against left handed Romanians, that's fine.
If boy Scouts want to discrimiante aginst homosexuals, that's fine.
If a corporation wants to refuse to hire African Americans, that's
fine.  Let's hear it for the Freedom to Discriminate!
Lawrence
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From Dowen at wcvt.com  Thu Feb 26 10:04:20 2004
From: Dowen at wcvt.com (Owen, Dan)
Date: Thu Mar 24 11:50:21 2005
Subject: [owen] discrimination
Message-ID: <3367C8BA324FD311AD06009027514849015F3DFA@tnet.wcvt.com>

Lawrence, 
 
Once again I fall victim to your canard.  In reality don't we all
discriminate on a daily basis?  I choose not to eat in places with loud
music playing.  I guess in your world I should rally the troops and get the
government to ban loud music, seemed to work for smoking in public places.
Rather than let individuals choose we let our courts set rules for us.
Seems to me people become jealous of what others have.  They can choose to
conform or they get the courts to force organizations to conform to them.
Do you automatically feel that an organization discriminates if it simply
has set rules and standards that it's members feel are important?  Do you
think we should force Islamic Mosque's to admit woman with uncovered heads
because to deny them entry is discriminatory?  How about joining your local
VFW.  You should scream bloody murder because you can't join simply because
you weren't in the service, what blatant discrimination! 
 
In my mind there is big difference between discriminating (showing careful
judgment or fine taste) and being prejudice (irrational hatred of a
particular group, race, or religion).  Perhaps you should park that wide
paint brush you are attempting to paint me with.  By the way thanks for the
nomination but I respectfully decline, much to busy practicing my putting.
 
Love Dan O...................     
  
 
 
---Original Message-----
From: owen-bounces@owenconnections.com
[mailto:owen-bounces@owenconnections.com]On Behalf Of lawrence
Sent: Thursday, February 26, 2004 11:09 AM
To: owen@owenconnections.com
Subject: [owen] discrimination



Dan --
I hereby nominate you to head up the Freedom To Discriminate 
lobby.  You will persuade legislators to pass enabling legislation,
guaranteeing organizations the right to discriminate.  If a church
wants to discriminate against left handed Romanians, that's fine.
If boy Scouts want to discrimiante aginst homosexuals, that's fine.
If a corporation wants to refuse to hire African Americans, that's
fine.  Let's hear it for the Freedom to Discriminate!
Lawrence

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From SAOwen at TarrantCounty.com  Thu Feb 26 10:43:59 2004
From: SAOwen at TarrantCounty.com (SAOwen@TarrantCounty.com)
Date: Thu Mar 24 11:50:21 2005
Subject: [owen] just wondering
Message-ID: <E50788FA14C4D511906100065B04E8FC011E073B@itcrex004.tarrantcounty.com>

Hi guys.  Let's play what if.  Please assume for the sake of this discussion
that everyone's sexuality is hard-wired into their genes.  That gays were
born gay, just like Lawrence was born lusting after dames.  If sexuality is
not a choice but simply a characteristic of birth, kind of like race and
gender, then:

1.  How can you justify denying gays any of the rights accorded to
straights?  If you use the Bible as your authority, please remember that the
Bible also justifies slavery and death by stoning, and we have moved past
those matters.

2.  Didn't God make gays to be gay?  Again, we are assuming genetic
determination here.  If God made gays gay, then how can we suggest they are
lesser humans?

Happy Thursday,
Steve

From kmcassels at sbcw-law.com  Thu Feb 26 10:59:43 2004
From: kmcassels at sbcw-law.com (Kelly Mack Cassels)
Date: Thu Mar 24 11:50:21 2005
Subject: [owen] just wondering
In-Reply-To: <E50788FA14C4D511906100065B04E8FC011E073B@itcrex004.tarrantcounty.com>
Message-ID: <005a01c3fc81$90324460$c793fea9@domain1>

If sexual orientation were no different than hair color, you'd be right.
But I don't buy your premise.  Why would God give His creation the
genetic make-up which would preclude them from procreating?  If this
were true, would not all the genetically gay lines have long ago
disappeared because of their inability to reproduce?  If you buy
Darwin's theory of natural selection, we would have fewer gay folks, not
more of them.

What will you say to the Man-Boy love guys who say they are wired that
way?  What about the daddy who is wired to love only is offspring?  

Don't think it flies..........

Kelly

-----Original Message-----
From: owen-bounces@owenconnections.com
[mailto:owen-bounces@owenconnections.com] On Behalf Of
SAOwen@TarrantCounty.com
Sent: Thursday, February 26, 2004 8:44 AM
To: owen@owenconnections.com
Subject: RE: [owen] just wondering

Hi guys.  Let's play what if.  Please assume for the sake of this
discussion
that everyone's sexuality is hard-wired into their genes.  That gays
were
born gay, just like Lawrence was born lusting after dames.  If sexuality
is
not a choice but simply a characteristic of birth, kind of like race and
gender, then:

1.  How can you justify denying gays any of the rights accorded to
straights?  If you use the Bible as your authority, please remember that
the
Bible also justifies slavery and death by stoning, and we have moved
past
those matters.

2.  Didn't God make gays to be gay?  Again, we are assuming genetic
determination here.  If God made gays gay, then how can we suggest they
are
lesser humans?

Happy Thursday,
Steve
_______________________________________________
Owen mailing list
Owen@owenconnections.com
https://my.binhost.com/lists/listinfo/owen
Full archives at: http://archives.binhost.com/~owen
 

---
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Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com).
Version: 6.0.577 / Virus Database: 366 - Release Date: 2/3/04
 


From joshbelbeck at comcast.net  Thu Feb 26 11:16:12 2004
From: joshbelbeck at comcast.net (Josh Belbeck)
Date: Thu Mar 24 11:50:21 2005
Subject: [owen] just wondering
In-Reply-To: <E50788FA14C4D511906100065B04E8FC011E073B@itcrex004.tarrantcounty.com>
Message-ID: <mailman.21.1111683021.15996.owen@owenconnections.com>

1.  I have yet to see a successful argument saying that being married is a
right.  If I wanted to I could use the Bible as a basis..but I don't need
to.  How about 2000 years or more of tradition?  Marriage obviously works
between a man and woman.  If I wanted to use the Bible then all I would have
to say is this.  If we all love your God with all your heart mind and soul
and love your neighbor as yourself...we would never have a discussion about
homosexual marriage.

2.  Based on your argument..gays were born this way..then so were murderers,
rapists, pedophile's etc..etc..etc..  Does that make the way they live
acceptable within society?  Hardly.

Josh 
-----Original Message-----
From: owen-bounces@owenconnections.com
[mailto:owen-bounces@owenconnections.com] On Behalf Of
SAOwen@TarrantCounty.com
Sent: Thursday, February 26, 2004 9:44 AM
To: owen@owenconnections.com
Subject: RE: [owen] just wondering

Hi guys.  Let's play what if.  Please assume for the sake of this discussion
that everyone's sexuality is hard-wired into their genes.  That gays were
born gay, just like Lawrence was born lusting after dames.  If sexuality is
not a choice but simply a characteristic of birth, kind of like race and
gender, then:

1.  How can you justify denying gays any of the rights accorded to
straights?  If you use the Bible as your authority, please remember that the
Bible also justifies slavery and death by stoning, and we have moved past
those matters.

2.  Didn't God make gays to be gay?  Again, we are assuming genetic
determination here.  If God made gays gay, then how can we suggest they are
lesser humans?

Happy Thursday,
Steve
_______________________________________________
Owen mailing list
Owen@owenconnections.com
https://my.binhost.com/lists/listinfo/owen
Full archives at: http://archives.binhost.com/~owen



From sowen at telepath.com  Thu Feb 26 11:46:10 2004
From: sowen at telepath.com (Susan Owen)
Date: Thu Mar 24 11:50:21 2005
Subject: [owen] Jean
Message-ID: <410-220042426164610859@telepath.com>

Jean is in  Baylor Hospital in Dallas. They did an arteriogram on her this morning, her heart does not appear to be her problem. They are calling in a hematologist to consult, to see why her platelets are so high. Dad said her room has a couch that he is sleeping on. Will let everyone know more when I find out more.
Susan
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From SAOwen at TarrantCounty.com  Thu Feb 26 11:46:44 2004
From: SAOwen at TarrantCounty.com (SAOwen@TarrantCounty.com)
Date: Thu Mar 24 11:50:21 2005
Subject: [owen] just wondering
Message-ID: <E50788FA14C4D511906100065B04E8FC011E073C@itcrex004.tarrantcounty.com>

Kelly:  Where did you ever get the notion that gays don't reproduce?  They
do it every day.  Some do it in the context of being closeted in their
orientation, living outwardly straight lives.  Kind of like David Gest and
Liza Minelli, only younger and less screwed up.  Some gays reproduce with
the help of straight friends, kind of like Melissa Etheridge's girlfriend
and David Crosby.  (With examples like this, I am getting quesy.)  The
Michael Jacksons of the world are also continuing to reproduce with alarming
regularity.  Boy, do I ever need to get off this train of thought.

Regarding your pedophilia red herrings, I submit that most sex therapists
will tell you that pedophiles are somewhat hard-wired into their
orientation.  Pedophiles are assailants and children are their victims.  Why
do you feel the need to bring them into this discussion?

Josh:  If 2000 years or more of tradition justifies your position, then
women shouldn't vote and blacks should be enslaved.  Some traditions are
borne of ignorance and are worth discarding, don't you agree?

From kmcassels at sbcw-law.com  Thu Feb 26 12:05:45 2004
From: kmcassels at sbcw-law.com (Kelly Mack Cassels)
Date: Thu Mar 24 11:50:21 2005
Subject: [owen] just wondering
In-Reply-To: <E50788FA14C4D511906100065B04E8FC011E073C@itcrex004.tarrantcounty.com>
Message-ID: <006a01c3fc8a$f1ee0460$c793fea9@domain1>

Steve,

I don't believe pedophiles are hard-wired either.  

Do you see where this is going?  If most "sexual therapists will tell
you that pedophiles are somewhat hard-wired into their orientation"
(which does not surprise me), then the next step is to say its not
really their fault....maybe we shouldn't blame them for their
actions....maybe, if they are made this way there is nothing wrong with
their actions.....why should we judge what is right and wrong for
them.....this seems right to them.....maybe its right for them...it
ought not to be a crime.....we shouldn't discriminate against them for
who they are..... they have every right to be teachers and boy scout
leaders and adoptive parents....we better pass laws to protect these
folks....
 
This is the road we went down with gays exactly.  That is why it is
relevant.

Kelly

 

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From joshbelbeck at comcast.net  Thu Feb 26 12:07:01 2004
From: joshbelbeck at comcast.net (Josh Belbeck)
Date: Thu Mar 24 11:50:21 2005
Subject: [owen] just wondering
In-Reply-To: <E50788FA14C4D511906100065B04E8FC011E073C@itcrex004.tarrantcounty.com>
Message-ID: <mailman.22.1111683021.15996.owen@owenconnections.com>

Well..since slavery has been around in every culture..not just ours, it is
based on what that culture wants to do, as far as women voting, again that
is a cultural issue.  The constant though that outlasts either of those is
the sanctity of a man marrying a woman.  That's how cultures are born..not
out of homosexuality.  My tradition still stands.

On another note...it wasn't long ago that psychiatrists said homosexuality
was mental disorder..things change because money is involved.  NAMBLA will
become a reality just because they have money and will lobby to get consent
age changed..just like homosexuals now are lobbying for extra rights.

Josh

-----Original Message-----
From: owen-bounces@owenconnections.com
[mailto:owen-bounces@owenconnections.com] On Behalf Of
SAOwen@TarrantCounty.com
Sent: Thursday, February 26, 2004 10:47 AM
To: owen@owenconnections.com
Subject: RE: [owen] just wondering

Kelly:  Where did you ever get the notion that gays don't reproduce?  They
do it every day.  Some do it in the context of being closeted in their
orientation, living outwardly straight lives.  Kind of like David Gest and
Liza Minelli, only younger and less screwed up.  Some gays reproduce with
the help of straight friends, kind of like Melissa Etheridge's girlfriend
and David Crosby.  (With examples like this, I am getting quesy.)  The
Michael Jacksons of the world are also continuing to reproduce with alarming
regularity.  Boy, do I ever need to get off this train of thought.

Regarding your pedophilia red herrings, I submit that most sex therapists
will tell you that pedophiles are somewhat hard-wired into their
orientation.  Pedophiles are assailants and children are their victims.  Why
do you feel the need to bring them into this discussion?

Josh:  If 2000 years or more of tradition justifies your position, then
women shouldn't vote and blacks should be enslaved.  Some traditions are
borne of ignorance and are worth discarding, don't you agree?
_______________________________________________
Owen mailing list
Owen@owenconnections.com
https://my.binhost.com/lists/listinfo/owen
Full archives at: http://archives.binhost.com/~owen



From SAOwen at TarrantCounty.com  Thu Feb 26 12:12:04 2004
From: SAOwen at TarrantCounty.com (SAOwen@TarrantCounty.com)
Date: Thu Mar 24 11:50:21 2005
Subject: [owen] just wondering
Message-ID: <E50788FA14C4D511906100065B04E8FC011E073D@itcrex004.tarrantcounty.com>

Kelly and Josh:  I really hope you are intellectually able to distinguish
between the actions of consenting adults and the non-consensual
victimization of children.  Stop talking apples and oranges, please.

From joshbelbeck at comcast.net  Thu Feb 26 12:30:15 2004
From: joshbelbeck at comcast.net (Josh Belbeck)
Date: Thu Mar 24 11:50:21 2005
Subject: [owen] just wondering
In-Reply-To: <E50788FA14C4D511906100065B04E8FC011E073D@itcrex004.tarrantcounty.com>
Message-ID: <mailman.23.1111683021.15996.owen@owenconnections.com>

I hope that you are intellectually honest to be able to see that there is a
group of people right now who choose to have sex with the same gender
lobbying for extra rights.  If this lobby wins, it is not hard to see that
another lobby will seek to change the age of consent to justify their
lifestyle.  So I say it is not Kelly or I that is being intellectually
dishonest..it is those who refuse to acknowledge that this sets bad
precedent which can and will be used in future sexual deviant lawsuits based
on who someone chooses to lust after.

As I said..if we could just follow the "Love your God with all your heart,
mind, and body, and love your neighbor as yourself".  If we could all do
this we wouldn't be having this discussion.  

Josh

-----Original Message-----
From: owen-bounces@owenconnections.com
[mailto:owen-bounces@owenconnections.com] On Behalf Of
SAOwen@TarrantCounty.com
Sent: Thursday, February 26, 2004 11:12 AM
To: owen@owenconnections.com
Subject: RE: [owen] just wondering

Kelly and Josh:  I really hope you are intellectually able to distinguish
between the actions of consenting adults and the non-consensual
victimization of children.  Stop talking apples and oranges, please.
_______________________________________________
Owen mailing list
Owen@owenconnections.com
https://my.binhost.com/lists/listinfo/owen
Full archives at: http://archives.binhost.com/~owen



From kmcassels at sbcw-law.com  Thu Feb 26 12:31:21 2004
From: kmcassels at sbcw-law.com (Kelly Mack Cassels)
Date: Thu Mar 24 11:50:21 2005
Subject: [owen] just wondering
In-Reply-To: <E50788FA14C4D511906100065B04E8FC011E073D@itcrex004.tarrantcounty.com>
Message-ID: <006b01c3fc8e$7e063f00$c793fea9@domain1>

The claim that homosexuality is "hard-wired" means that a boy or girl is
born that way, so its OK for them to express themselves as children and
young adults.  This gives the gay rights folks the right to seek them
out and educate them that it's ok to be gay.  The kids hear this in
elementary school.  New class of recruits.  Maybe a boy thinks, heck the
girls don?t like me, and I don?t like them.  I must be gay, and that's
ok.  This is predatory in my opinion, and is the victimization of
children.  

Adults talk kids into consenting all the time, does that make it right?
The Man-Boy crowd says its actually good for the kids.  

-----Original Message-----
From: owen-bounces@owenconnections.com
[mailto:owen-bounces@owenconnections.com] On Behalf Of
SAOwen@TarrantCounty.com
Sent: Thursday, February 26, 2004 10:12 AM
To: owen@owenconnections.com
Subject: RE: [owen] just wondering

Kelly and Josh:  I really hope you are intellectually able to
distinguish
between the actions of consenting adults and the non-consensual
victimization of children.  Stop talking apples and oranges, please.
_______________________________________________
Owen mailing list
Owen@owenconnections.com
https://my.binhost.com/lists/listinfo/owen
Full archives at: http://archives.binhost.com/~owen

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From jcassels_2000 at hotmail.com  Thu Feb 26 11:58:10 2004
From: jcassels_2000 at hotmail.com (Jeff Cassels)
Date: Thu Mar 24 11:50:21 2005
Subject: [owen] just wondering
Message-ID: <BAY10-F74P7Ie8tlMaz0000c75d@hotmail.com>

Steve, Gays cannot reproduce by themselves.  Don't trot off the point.

Jesus stoped a stoning in its tracks 2000 years ago.


>From: SAOwen@TarrantCounty.com
>Reply-To: owen@owenconnections.com
>To: owen@owenconnections.com
>Subject: RE: [owen] just wondering
>Date: Thu, 26 Feb 2004 10:46:44 -0600
>
>Kelly:  Where did you ever get the notion that gays don't reproduce?  They
>do it every day.  Some do it in the context of being closeted in their
>orientation, living outwardly straight lives.  Kind of like David Gest and
>Liza Minelli, only younger and less screwed up.  Some gays reproduce with
>the help of straight friends, kind of like Melissa Etheridge's girlfriend
>and David Crosby.  (With examples like this, I am getting quesy.)  The
>Michael Jacksons of the world are also continuing to reproduce with 
>alarming
>regularity.  Boy, do I ever need to get off this train of thought.
>
>Regarding your pedophilia red herrings, I submit that most sex therapists
>will tell you that pedophiles are somewhat hard-wired into their
>orientation.  Pedophiles are assailants and children are their victims.  
>Why
>do you feel the need to bring them into this discussion?
>
>Josh:  If 2000 years or more of tradition justifies your position, then
>women shouldn't vote and blacks should be enslaved.  Some traditions are
>borne of ignorance and are worth discarding, don't you agree?
>_______________________________________________
>Owen mailing list
>Owen@owenconnections.com
>https://my.binhost.com/lists/listinfo/owen
>Full archives at: http://archives.binhost.com/~owen

_________________________________________________________________
Store more e-mails with MSN Hotmail Extra Storage – 4 plans to choose from! 
http://click.atdmt.com/AVE/go/onm00200362ave/direct/01/


From SAOwen at TarrantCounty.com  Thu Feb 26 14:56:42 2004
From: SAOwen at TarrantCounty.com (SAOwen@TarrantCounty.com)
Date: Thu Mar 24 11:50:21 2005
Subject: [owen] Jean
Message-ID: <E50788FA14C4D511906100065B04E8FC011E073E@itcrex004.tarrantcounty.com>

Dad appears to alternate his calls between me and Susan, so I'll give this
layman's update.  Jean has minor blockage in her arteries which is readily
treatable with medication.  The docs still don't know why her platelets are
high, so they are going to do a bone marrow biopsy tomorrow to rule out
cancer.  They suspect some sort of non-cancerous bone marrow disease which
is also treatable with meds.  This report is based on communications from
unknown medical personnel to a retired computer programmer to a small-time
judge to you, so maybe Susan at some point can get the real skinny and
report back.  I wouldn't know a platelet if it walked in here right now.
 
Jean is in room 308 at Hamilton Hospital, Baylor Medical Center, Dallas.
Her room phone is 214-818-8348.  Dad expects she will be released on
Saturday.
 
Cheers,
Steve
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From gmb42 at yahoo.com  Thu Feb 26 16:45:29 2004
From: gmb42 at yahoo.com (Nathaniel Owen)
Date: Thu Mar 24 11:50:21 2005
Subject: [owen] Passion of the Christ
Message-ID: <20040226214529.51580.qmail@web40704.mail.yahoo.com>

Hey Folks,
 
Just saw it and I am pretty speechless.  I'm not really sure what I think about the movie to be quite honest.  As some of you might now, I'm not a very religious person whereas I have more questions than I do beliefs but to watch that film and to get a sense (although through movie adaptation) of what Jesus went through is truly amazing....
 
Nate


---------------------------------
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From the_ahs at hometownsolutions.net  Thu Feb 26 16:52:54 2004
From: the_ahs at hometownsolutions.net (Arne Kildegaard)
Date: Thu Mar 24 11:50:21 2005
Subject: [owen] just wondering
In-Reply-To: <B0004970161@map1.htaccount.halstadtel.com>
References: <B0004970161@map1.htaccount.halstadtel.com>
Message-ID: <403E6AB6.4070107@hometownsolutions.net>

Josh,
Regarding "2000 years or more of tradition," here is a list put together 
by a professor of history in North Dakota:

Here are hisorical notations about some of the dramatic changes in the 
legal structure of marriage in Western Europe and the United States.

   1.  From the 5th to the 14th centuries, the Roman Catholic Church
      conducted special ceremonies to bless same-sex unions which were
      almost identical for those to bless heterosexual unions. At the
      very least, these were spiritual, if not sexual, unions.

   2. In 1076, Pope Alexander II issued a decree prohibiting marriages
      between couples who were more closely related than 6th cousins.

   3. In the 16th century, servants and day laborers were not allowed to
      marry in Bavaria and Austria unless they had the permission of
      local political authorities. This law was not finally abolished in
      Austria until 1921.

   4.  From the 1690s to the 1870s, ?wife sale? was common in rural and
      small-town England. To divorce his wife, a husband could present
      her with a rope around her neck in a public sale to another man.

   5. Marriage was strictly a civil and not an ecclesiastical ceremony
      for the Puritans in Massachusetts Bay until 1686.

   6. The Pilgrims outlawed courtship of a daughter or a female servant
      unless consent was first obtained from parents or master.

   7. Until 1662, there was no penalty for interracial marriages in any
      of the British colonies in North America. In 1662, Virginia
      doubled the fine for fornication between interracial couples. In
      1664, Maryland became the first colony to ban interracial
      marriages. By 1750, all southern colonies, plus Massachusetts and
      Pennsylvania outlawed interracial marriages.

   8. Under English common law, and in all American colonies and states
      until the middle of the 19th century, married women had no legal
      standing. They could not own property, sign contracts, or legally
      control any wages they might earn.

   9. In 1848, New York became the first state to pass a Married Woman?s
      Property Act, guaranteeing the right of married women to own
      property.

  10. Throughout most of the 19th century, the minimum age of consent
      for sexual intercourse in most American states was 10 years. In
      Delaware it was only 7 years.

  11. As late as 1930, twelve states allowed boys as young as 14 and
      girls as young as 12 to marry (with parental consent).

  12. As late as 1940, married women were not allowed to make a legal
      contract in twelve states.

  13. In 1967, the U.S. Supreme Court struck down state
      anti-miscegenation laws in /Loving v. Virginia/.

      As a result of the decision, Virginia and fifteen other states had
      their anti-miscegenation laws declared unconstitutional. Those
      states were: Alabama, Arkansas, Delaware, Florida, Georgia,
      Kentucky, Louisiana, Mississippi, Missouri, North Carolina,
      Oklahoma, South Carolina, Tennessee, Texas, and West Virginia.

      In the fifteen years prior to the decision, fourteen states had
      repealed their anti-miscegenation laws. Those fourteen states
      were: Arizona, California, Colorado, Idaho, Indiana, Maryland,
      Montana, Nebraska, Nevada, North Dakota, Oregon, South Dakota,
      Utah, and Wyoming.

  14. In 1978, New York became the first state to outlaw rape in
      marriage. By 1990, only a total of ten states outlawed rape in
      marriage. In thirty-six states rape in marriage was a crime only
      in certain circumstances. In four states, rape in marriage was
      never a crime.


Our ideas of what "marriage" are have changed quite drastically in those 
2000 years. (In case anyone is interested, the word /marriage/ comes 
from the Latin word meaning "husband." ) A case against marriage for 
gays and lesbians built on "tradition" is flimsy at best.

I don't understand how you can equate gays and lesbians with "murderers, 
rapists, pedophiles etc. etc. etc." I cringe when I read things like this.

I am so happy to hear news on this list about Helen being home and 
feeling better. I appreciate learning that my aunt Jean is in the 
hospital and how I can reach her. Sometimes I am a grateful recipient of 
the owen connections list.

Right now, however, the hatred that is being expressed on this list for 
some of our fellow human beings saddens me greatly. I have many 
cherished gay and lesbian friends, some of whom have been in committed 
relationships longer than most of my hetero friends, some of whom are 
active members in their churches, some of whom are amazing teachers and 
leaders, all of whom live their lives according to the Golden Rule.

In love, Athena


From joshbelbeck at comcast.net  Thu Feb 26 17:46:16 2004
From: joshbelbeck at comcast.net (Josh Belbeck)
Date: Thu Mar 24 11:50:21 2005
Subject: [owen] just wondering
In-Reply-To: <403E6AB6.4070107@hometownsolutions.net>
Message-ID: <mailman.24.1111683021.15996.owen@owenconnections.com>

Well..since this argument was based on a "What if" I can and will equate
homosexuality with pedophiles, rapists, murderers...or any other deviant
kind of lifestyle.  Since the argument was they were inborn with it..i
presented the full logic that we can't just stop at homosexuals as the only
deviants with this genetic problem....life isn't that convenient.  

As far as the hatred..i hope that you don't think anything I said has come
out of malice.  In fact the whole point is that there is an institution of
marriage.  Where a man and woman come together and love and respect each
other (love your wife as you love yourself..vice versa)...all of what you
posted is a perversion of what man "thinks" marriage should be...i.e.
homosexual marriage, bigamy, polygamy etc.  Even the fact that man put
limit's on interracial marriages is a perversion of what marriage is.

However..this discussion was started on a "what if" and I would be happy to
continue on a what if vein if ya'll choose to.

The reality though is this.  Homosexuals don't qualify for marriage under
the laws as they currently are.  So in order for homosexuals to get married
we have to create a whole new set of laws while changing the meaning of an
institution that has worked for more than 2000 years.  Never before has our
country been faced with a group of people who want to create whole new
rights based on their personal choice.  I personally am saddened that
someone would be so selfish as to try to destroy something just because they
need a piece of paper to validate their existence.  I personally know that
my parents don't need a marriage license to say that they love one another.


We don't need this precedent set because NAMBLA won't be far behind claiming
this case as precedent..and if you think I am equating homosexuality with
NAMBLA...well I am because those men want to engage in homosexual acts with
boys..making those men homosexual.  Homosexuals vying for rights where
rights don't exist just makes NAMBLA's case, and bigamists, polygamists etc
case even stronger.  So why set precedent when all it will do is hurt our
society?  Not one person has yet shown that homosexual marriage will benefit
us as a whole..and the burden of proof is on them..not me.

I do find it interesting though that no one has yet touched my analogy about
the bi-sexuals.  I would like to here some of you who support homosexual
marriage try to tell me how we stop that scenario..because that issue will
come up...and faster than you think.

Love 

Josh


-----Original Message-----
From: owen-bounces@owenconnections.com
[mailto:owen-bounces@owenconnections.com] On Behalf Of Arne Kildegaard
Sent: Thursday, February 26, 2004 3:53 PM
To: owen@owenconnections.com
Subject: Re: [owen] just wondering

Josh,
Regarding "2000 years or more of tradition," here is a list put together 
by a professor of history in North Dakota:

Here are hisorical notations about some of the dramatic changes in the 
legal structure of marriage in Western Europe and the United States.

   1.  From the 5th to the 14th centuries, the Roman Catholic Church
      conducted special ceremonies to bless same-sex unions which were
      almost identical for those to bless heterosexual unions. At the
      very least, these were spiritual, if not sexual, unions.

   2. In 1076, Pope Alexander II issued a decree prohibiting marriages
      between couples who were more closely related than 6th cousins.

   3. In the 16th century, servants and day laborers were not allowed to
      marry in Bavaria and Austria unless they had the permission of
      local political authorities. This law was not finally abolished in
      Austria until 1921.

   4.  From the 1690s to the 1870s, "wife sale" was common in rural and
      small-town England. To divorce his wife, a husband could present
      her with a rope around her neck in a public sale to another man.

   5. Marriage was strictly a civil and not an ecclesiastical ceremony
      for the Puritans in Massachusetts Bay until 1686.

   6. The Pilgrims outlawed courtship of a daughter or a female servant
      unless consent was first obtained from parents or master.

   7. Until 1662, there was no penalty for interracial marriages in any
      of the British colonies in North America. In 1662, Virginia
      doubled the fine for fornication between interracial couples. In
      1664, Maryland became the first colony to ban interracial
      marriages. By 1750, all southern colonies, plus Massachusetts and
      Pennsylvania outlawed interracial marriages.

   8. Under English common law, and in all American colonies and states
      until the middle of the 19th century, married women had no legal
      standing. They could not own property, sign contracts, or legally
      control any wages they might earn.

   9. In 1848, New York became the first state to pass a Married Woman's
      Property Act, guaranteeing the right of married women to own
      property.

  10. Throughout most of the 19th century, the minimum age of consent
      for sexual intercourse in most American states was 10 years. In
      Delaware it was only 7 years.

  11. As late as 1930, twelve states allowed boys as young as 14 and
      girls as young as 12 to marry (with parental consent).

  12. As late as 1940, married women were not allowed to make a legal
      contract in twelve states.

  13. In 1967, the U.S. Supreme Court struck down state
      anti-miscegenation laws in /Loving v. Virginia/.

      As a result of the decision, Virginia and fifteen other states had
      their anti-miscegenation laws declared unconstitutional. Those
      states were: Alabama, Arkansas, Delaware, Florida, Georgia,
      Kentucky, Louisiana, Mississippi, Missouri, North Carolina,
      Oklahoma, South Carolina, Tennessee, Texas, and West Virginia.

      In the fifteen years prior to the decision, fourteen states had
      repealed their anti-miscegenation laws. Those fourteen states
      were: Arizona, California, Colorado, Idaho, Indiana, Maryland,
      Montana, Nebraska, Nevada, North Dakota, Oregon, South Dakota,
      Utah, and Wyoming.

  14. In 1978, New York became the first state to outlaw rape in
      marriage. By 1990, only a total of ten states outlawed rape in
      marriage. In thirty-six states rape in marriage was a crime only
      in certain circumstances. In four states, rape in marriage was
      never a crime.


Our ideas of what "marriage" are have changed quite drastically in those 
2000 years. (In case anyone is interested, the word /marriage/ comes 
from the Latin word meaning "husband." ) A case against marriage for 
gays and lesbians built on "tradition" is flimsy at best.

I don't understand how you can equate gays and lesbians with "murderers, 
rapists, pedophiles etc. etc. etc." I cringe when I read things like this.

I am so happy to hear news on this list about Helen being home and 
feeling better. I appreciate learning that my aunt Jean is in the 
hospital and how I can reach her. Sometimes I am a grateful recipient of 
the owen connections list.

Right now, however, the hatred that is being expressed on this list for 
some of our fellow human beings saddens me greatly. I have many 
cherished gay and lesbian friends, some of whom have been in committed 
relationships longer than most of my hetero friends, some of whom are 
active members in their churches, some of whom are amazing teachers and 
leaders, all of whom live their lives according to the Golden Rule.

In love, Athena

_______________________________________________
Owen mailing list
Owen@owenconnections.com
https://my.binhost.com/lists/listinfo/owen
Full archives at: http://archives.binhost.com/~owen



From jd.cassels at verizon.net  Thu Feb 26 20:45:20 2004
From: jd.cassels at verizon.net (Jeff Cassels)
Date: Thu Mar 24 11:50:21 2005
Subject: [owen] just wondering
In-Reply-To: <403E6AB6.4070107@hometownsolutions.net>
Message-ID: <003701c3fcd3$5c02c410$e26a0c04@Cassels>

What does this list have to do with anything?  2000 years ago, Paul
proclaimed that righteous men, who were to be leaders of the church,
should be the husband of but one wife.  Paul also stated that husbands
should love their wives like Christ loved the Church.  This calls for
laying down one's own life for another.  This is the basis of a holy
marriage.

Jeff

-----Original Message-----
From: owen-bounces@owenconnections.com
[mailto:owen-bounces@owenconnections.com] On Behalf Of Arne Kildegaard
Sent: Thursday, February 26, 2004 3:53 PM
To: owen@owenconnections.com
Subject: Re: [owen] just wondering


Josh,
Regarding "2000 years or more of tradition," here is a list put together

by a professor of history in North Dakota:

Here are hisorical notations about some of the dramatic changes in the 
legal structure of marriage in Western Europe and the United States.

   1.  From the 5th to the 14th centuries, the Roman Catholic Church
      conducted special ceremonies to bless same-sex unions which were
      almost identical for those to bless heterosexual unions. At the
      very least, these were spiritual, if not sexual, unions.

   2. In 1076, Pope Alexander II issued a decree prohibiting marriages
      between couples who were more closely related than 6th cousins.

   3. In the 16th century, servants and day laborers were not allowed to
      marry in Bavaria and Austria unless they had the permission of
      local political authorities. This law was not finally abolished in
      Austria until 1921.

   4.  From the 1690s to the 1870s, "wife sale" was common in rural and
      small-town England. To divorce his wife, a husband could present
      her with a rope around her neck in a public sale to another man.

   5. Marriage was strictly a civil and not an ecclesiastical ceremony
      for the Puritans in Massachusetts Bay until 1686.

   6. The Pilgrims outlawed courtship of a daughter or a female servant
      unless consent was first obtained from parents or master.

   7. Until 1662, there was no penalty for interracial marriages in any
      of the British colonies in North America. In 1662, Virginia
      doubled the fine for fornication between interracial couples. In
      1664, Maryland became the first colony to ban interracial
      marriages. By 1750, all southern colonies, plus Massachusetts and
      Pennsylvania outlawed interracial marriages.

   8. Under English common law, and in all American colonies and states
      until the middle of the 19th century, married women had no legal
      standing. They could not own property, sign contracts, or legally
      control any wages they might earn.

   9. In 1848, New York became the first state to pass a Married Woman's
      Property Act, guaranteeing the right of married women to own
      property.

  10. Throughout most of the 19th century, the minimum age of consent
      for sexual intercourse in most American states was 10 years. In
      Delaware it was only 7 years.

  11. As late as 1930, twelve states allowed boys as young as 14 and
      girls as young as 12 to marry (with parental consent).

  12. As late as 1940, married women were not allowed to make a legal
      contract in twelve states.

  13. In 1967, the U.S. Supreme Court struck down state
      anti-miscegenation laws in /Loving v. Virginia/.

      As a result of the decision, Virginia and fifteen other states had
      their anti-miscegenation laws declared unconstitutional. Those
      states were: Alabama, Arkansas, Delaware, Florida, Georgia,
      Kentucky, Louisiana, Mississippi, Missouri, North Carolina,
      Oklahoma, South Carolina, Tennessee, Texas, and West Virginia.

      In the fifteen years prior to the decision, fourteen states had
      repealed their anti-miscegenation laws. Those fourteen states
      were: Arizona, California, Colorado, Idaho, Indiana, Maryland,
      Montana, Nebraska, Nevada, North Dakota, Oregon, South Dakota,
      Utah, and Wyoming.

  14. In 1978, New York became the first state to outlaw rape in
      marriage. By 1990, only a total of ten states outlawed rape in
      marriage. In thirty-six states rape in marriage was a crime only
      in certain circumstances. In four states, rape in marriage was
      never a crime.


Our ideas of what "marriage" are have changed quite drastically in those

2000 years. (In case anyone is interested, the word /marriage/ comes 
from the Latin word meaning "husband." ) A case against marriage for 
gays and lesbians built on "tradition" is flimsy at best.

I don't understand how you can equate gays and lesbians with "murderers,

rapists, pedophiles etc. etc. etc." I cringe when I read things like
this.

I am so happy to hear news on this list about Helen being home and 
feeling better. I appreciate learning that my aunt Jean is in the 
hospital and how I can reach her. Sometimes I am a grateful recipient of

the owen connections list.

Right now, however, the hatred that is being expressed on this list for 
some of our fellow human beings saddens me greatly. I have many 
cherished gay and lesbian friends, some of whom have been in committed 
relationships longer than most of my hetero friends, some of whom are 
active members in their churches, some of whom are amazing teachers and 
leaders, all of whom live their lives according to the Golden Rule.

In love, Athena

_______________________________________________
Owen mailing list
Owen@owenconnections.com https://my.binhost.com/lists/listinfo/owen
Full archives at: http://archives.binhost.com/~owen


From Dowen at wcvt.com  Fri Feb 27 07:30:48 2004
From: Dowen at wcvt.com (Owen, Dan)
Date: Thu Mar 24 11:50:21 2005
Subject: [owen] Opinions?
Message-ID: <3367C8BA324FD311AD06009027514849015F3DFC@tnet.wcvt.com>

All,

Just wondering if anyone reading this connection has had their opinion
concerning same sex marriage moved even a little bit?  I seriously doubt it.
Athena, I apologize if some of my ramblings about this subject are
considered as hatred.  I think folks can disagree about others life choices
without hating them.  I think the thoughts expressed within our small group
are very representative of the country as a whole and if we cannot discuss
them openly as a family can you just imagine how divisive they are with
strangers.  Josh raises a great point that should not be taken lightly.
Does anyone honestly think that if marriage is extended to same sex couples
that the debate stops?  Opinions concerning gays has softened as of late but
not so many years ago gays were considered as evil as a rapist, murderers or
pedophiles.  

In an effort to throw some more gas on the fire does anyone think there is a
correlation with the breakdown of the family unit as we once knew it in this
country and the acceptance of gay rights?  The time lines seem to trend with
each other?

Love you all Dan O...........        

-----Original Message-----
From: owen-bounces@owenconnections.com
[mailto:owen-bounces@owenconnections.com]On Behalf Of Arne Kildegaard
Sent: Thursday, February 26, 2004 4:53 PM
To: owen@owenconnections.com
Subject: Re: [owen] just wondering


Josh,
Regarding "2000 years or more of tradition," here is a list put together 
by a professor of history in North Dakota:

Here are hisorical notations about some of the dramatic changes in the 
legal structure of marriage in Western Europe and the United States.

   1.  From the 5th to the 14th centuries, the Roman Catholic Church
      conducted special ceremonies to bless same-sex unions which were
      almost identical for those to bless heterosexual unions. At the
      very least, these were spiritual, if not sexual, unions.

   2. In 1076, Pope Alexander II issued a decree prohibiting marriages
      between couples who were more closely related than 6th cousins.

   3. In the 16th century, servants and day laborers were not allowed to
      marry in Bavaria and Austria unless they had the permission of
      local political authorities. This law was not finally abolished in
      Austria until 1921.

   4.  From the 1690s to the 1870s, ?wife sale? was common in rural and
      small-town England. To divorce his wife, a husband could present
      her with a rope around her neck in a public sale to another man.

   5. Marriage was strictly a civil and not an ecclesiastical ceremony
      for the Puritans in Massachusetts Bay until 1686.

   6. The Pilgrims outlawed courtship of a daughter or a female servant
      unless consent was first obtained from parents or master.

   7. Until 1662, there was no penalty for interracial marriages in any
      of the British colonies in North America. In 1662, Virginia
      doubled the fine for fornication between interracial couples. In
      1664, Maryland became the first colony to ban interracial
      marriages. By 1750, all southern colonies, plus Massachusetts and
      Pennsylvania outlawed interracial marriages.

   8. Under English common law, and in all American colonies and states
      until the middle of the 19th century, married women had no legal
      standing. They could not own property, sign contracts, or legally
      control any wages they might earn.

   9. In 1848, New York became the first state to pass a Married Woman?s
      Property Act, guaranteeing the right of married women to own
      property.

  10. Throughout most of the 19th century, the minimum age of consent
      for sexual intercourse in most American states was 10 years. In
      Delaware it was only 7 years.

  11. As late as 1930, twelve states allowed boys as young as 14 and
      girls as young as 12 to marry (with parental consent).

  12. As late as 1940, married women were not allowed to make a legal
      contract in twelve states.

  13. In 1967, the U.S. Supreme Court struck down state
      anti-miscegenation laws in /Loving v. Virginia/.

      As a result of the decision, Virginia and fifteen other states had
      their anti-miscegenation laws declared unconstitutional. Those
      states were: Alabama, Arkansas, Delaware, Florida, Georgia,
      Kentucky, Louisiana, Mississippi, Missouri, North Carolina,
      Oklahoma, South Carolina, Tennessee, Texas, and West Virginia.

      In the fifteen years prior to the decision, fourteen states had
      repealed their anti-miscegenation laws. Those fourteen states
      were: Arizona, California, Colorado, Idaho, Indiana, Maryland,
      Montana, Nebraska, Nevada, North Dakota, Oregon, South Dakota,
      Utah, and Wyoming.

  14. In 1978, New York became the first state to outlaw rape in
      marriage. By 1990, only a total of ten states outlawed rape in
      marriage. In thirty-six states rape in marriage was a crime only
      in certain circumstances. In four states, rape in marriage was
      never a crime.


Our ideas of what "marriage" are have changed quite drastically in those 
2000 years. (In case anyone is interested, the word /marriage/ comes 
from the Latin word meaning "husband." ) A case against marriage for 
gays and lesbians built on "tradition" is flimsy at best.

I don't understand how you can equate gays and lesbians with "murderers, 
rapists, pedophiles etc. etc. etc." I cringe when I read things like this.

I am so happy to hear news on this list about Helen being home and 
feeling better. I appreciate learning that my aunt Jean is in the 
hospital and how I can reach her. Sometimes I am a grateful recipient of 
the owen connections list.

Right now, however, the hatred that is being expressed on this list for 
some of our fellow human beings saddens me greatly. I have many 
cherished gay and lesbian friends, some of whom have been in committed 
relationships longer than most of my hetero friends, some of whom are 
active members in their churches, some of whom are amazing teachers and 
leaders, all of whom live their lives according to the Golden Rule.

In love, Athena

_______________________________________________
Owen mailing list
Owen@owenconnections.com
https://my.binhost.com/lists/listinfo/owen
Full archives at: http://archives.binhost.com/~owen

From klowen at hsnp.com  Fri Feb 27 10:06:53 2004
From: klowen at hsnp.com (lawrence)
Date: Thu Mar 24 11:50:22 2005
Subject: [owen] civil unions
Message-ID: <000c01c3fd43$5ecc7680$9989fea9@oemcomputer>

Why would the debate stop?  Who wants the debate to stop?  If homnosexuals
gain equal protection under the law, that should neither encourage nor discourage 
pedophiles and polygamists.  Why should it?

The trend lines are interesting Dan.  The push for gay rights in recent years occurred
while personal computers were being invented and popularized.  And the use of DNA as
a tool used by law enforcement too.  It would be amusing to look at other trends that
accompanied the work done by homosexuals to gain their rights.  Causal connections
would be fairly tough to establish.

I think NAMBLA and the World Church of the Creator should combine their efforts.  They
would then be quite a formidable outfit, numbering probably in the dozens. 

Thanks Athena for posting that wonderful list worked up by the U of ND prof.  The list shows
the amazing creativity of humans as they think up ways to mate, control mating, sanction
mating.  Jeff didn't find it interesting, but I think the list is fascinating.  Jeff says Paul
said some stuff about marriage.  My response:  So what?  Who cares?  Paul's opinion 
is no weightier than Larry Flynt's.  It's just another opinion.  

Dan, I buried that big wide brush.  But I'll dig it up if you keep defending the right of
organizations to discriminate on whatever basis pleases them.   I've spent a couple of 
good hours reading in the Ency. Britannica  on marriage.  It is a very rich subject, and
the Christian idea of a monogamous relation is just one of many, many ideas about what
constitutes a proper marriage.  

Yes, Dan I have changed my mind because of the discussion on owenconnections.  I now 
think it my civic duty to champion the rights of homosexuals to gain equal protection
under the law, to be treated exactly the same as all other cirtizens.  If a homosexual is found
molesting or forcing sexual activity on a child, punish her, or him.  Period.  Treat that person
exactly the same way the heterosexual molester, child abuser is treated.   I will speak up and out
to prevent  adherents of a religion from imposing their notion of what's right as law.  

I understand that some Episcopalians have trouble playing chess now because of confusion
about bishop and queen.

Cheers --  Lawrence
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From SAOwen at TarrantCounty.com  Fri Feb 27 10:46:53 2004
From: SAOwen at TarrantCounty.com (SAOwen@TarrantCounty.com)
Date: Thu Mar 24 11:50:22 2005
Subject: [owen] civil unions
Message-ID: <E50788FA14C4D511906100065B04E8FC011E073F@itcrex004.tarrantcounty.com>

Hiya, all you free thinkers.  TGIF.  Bob Herbert's column in the Times this
morning got me to thinking about the post from June and my response
regarding the difference between religious and state-sanctioned unions.  I
am going to go out on a limb and guess that for each and every one of you
married folk, your marriage is defined by the spiritual/religious/personal
commitment to your spouse more than by the piece of paper you received from
the marriage license clerk.  Most people will say this until the divorce
petition is filed, I believe.

Will any one of you claim that your marriage is defined by the divorce laws
or marital property laws of your state?  You can legally split your property
any way you want with anyone you want, without a marriage or other personal
commitment.  All you need is a contract and a will.  You can grant anyone
you want power of attorney to handle your affairs, again without the
necessity of a marriage or otherwise.

So, if in fact your marriage is a personal and/or religious joinder of two
people, then aren't all the gay couples who have been getting "married" over
the years by gay-friendly clergy just as married as you are, save the piece
of paper from the state?  Are you personally authorized by God to tell any
particular religious body that they can or can't religiously sanction gay
unions?

Just wondering,
Steve

From jcassels_2000 at hotmail.com  Fri Feb 27 11:52:40 2004
From: jcassels_2000 at hotmail.com (Jeff Cassels)
Date: Thu Mar 24 11:50:22 2005
Subject: [owen] Leno
Message-ID: <BAY10-F66oBD08O6QZu00012bc1@hotmail.com>

In his opening monologue last night, with Mel Gibson as his guest, Jay Leno 
joked that the "The Passion of the Christ",  was doing so well that "there's 
now talk of turning it into a book."

He He  : )

Jim Caviezel is on tonight.

Jeff

_________________________________________________________________
Get fast, reliable access with MSN 9 Dial-up. Click here for Special Offer! 
http://click.atdmt.com/AVE/go/onm00200361ave/direct/01/


From owengj at ultravision.net  Fri Feb 27 23:11:47 2004
From: owengj at ultravision.net (G P Owen)
Date: Thu Mar 24 11:50:22 2005
Subject: [owen] Jean @ Home
Message-ID: <000a01c3fdb1$1366aa80$806e87d8@DH61ZN21>

I brought Jean home this afternoon late.  They performed a bone marrow biopsy today. We have an appointment with the hematologist next Friday at 2 PM when we may get the results of the biopsy.  Jean's heart beat returned to normal about 3:30 this morning.  She ate a little bit tonight and has been sleeping --undrugged-- since about 8:00.  We appreciate the interest and contacts that you have made the last few days.  Your prayers for desirable results of the biopsy are requested.  We love each of you.  G P
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From klowen at hsnp.com  Sat Feb 28 09:06:56 2004
From: klowen at hsnp.com (klowen@hsnp.com)
Date: Thu Mar 24 11:50:22 2005
Subject: [owen] NYTimes.com Article: Op-Ed Columnist: A Time to Dance,
	and Mourn 
Message-ID: <20040228140656.1B63384BA@web39t.prvt.nytimes.com>

This article from NYTimes.com 
has been sent to you by klowen@hsnp.com.


This father's thoughts on his 
son's bar mitzvah are touching 
and informative.
Lawrence

klowen@hsnp.com


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Op-Ed Columnist: A Time to Dance, and Mourn

February 28, 2004
 By DAVID BROOKS 



 

As you read this on Saturday morning, my elder son, Joshua,
will be having his bar mitzvah. We'll be doing what many
parents do on these occasions: telling stories about him,
worrying about the party this evening. 

But it will be hard to miss the larger meaning of the
ceremony because Joshua will be having his bar mitzvah in
downtown Washington in a newly restored synagogue that
hasn't seen a bar mitzvah in over half a century. On the
day we rehearsed, there were three Torahs in the ark, none
of them used since World War II. One was confiscated by the
Nazis at the entrance to Auschwitz. Another was smuggled
into Bergen-Belsen. 

The third, from which Joshua will read, was written in
Wegrow, Poland, and is the only one of the 13 Torahs in
that town to survive the Holocaust. 

Wegrow (pronounced VEN-gwoov) is about 55 miles northeast
of Warsaw. Jews settled there early in the 16th century,
and there were 6,000 to 8,000 of them when the Nazi
occupation began on Sept. 7, 1939. A few weeks later, on
Yom Kippur, SS officers went to the home of the town's
rabbi, Mendel Morgenstern, dragged him to the central
marketplace and ordered him to undress. They handed him a
broom and told him to sweep up the manure in the square and
carry it to the town dump in his velvet hat. As the rabbi
tried to do that, a soldier drove a bayonet into his
abdomen, killing him. His synagogue was immediately closed
and ultimately destroyed. 

The Nazis set up a Jewish governing body, a "Judenrat," to
collect taxes and supply forced-labor teams. News about the
concentration camp in nearby Treblinka swept the town, but
the roundups in Wegrow didn't begin until the day after Yom
Kippur in 1942. 

A few families had constructed hiding places in attics and
basements, and they could watch through peepholes as their
relatives and friends were loaded onto trucks. By that time
everyone knew exactly what was going to happen. Some cursed
the Germans; some lunged at the soldiers and tried to
scratch their eyes. 

"I want to live a little longer," one girl told her mother
as they stood in line. "No, you will not live because the
world has no room for you," her mother answered bitterly. 

The roundups lasted for several days. About half the Jews
in the town fled to the nearby forest, where almost all
were hunted down and shot by German troops. (Poles received
two pounds of sugar for every Jew they killed or captured.)


The other Jews waited. One father, furious at the universe,
announced that he was going to turn in his family
immediately. He was told to hide and think of his children.
"If my children remain alive, they will curse me for not
having allowed them to die earlier," he answered. 

At night, those in hiding could hear Germans celebrating
the deportations. By day they watched their former
neighbors taking over their stores and businesses. 

Some Jews did survive. About a hundred were kept in the
town to work, though they were herded into a building on
May Day 1943 and burned to death. Others hid in farms and
in the forest for the duration of the war. The last
survivors included Feivel Bielawski. When the Nazis were
driven back, he and his brother returned and sat for days
on the front step of their old house. "Freedom did not
bring happiness," he wrote in his memoir. "We were sad and
depressed and longed to see another Jew." But, of course,
there were none. 

Feivel Bielawski, who became Phil Biel, died 15 days ago in
Minnesota. 

Joshua will be reading in a neighborhood brought back from
decay, in a synagogue restored to its former self, from a
Torah that not only recounts history, but is itself
history. There will be an amazing sense of threads' being
retied. And there will be reminders that we're mysteriously
bound by things that happened before we were born and to
people, now dead, whose lives are interwoven with our own.
"What their species is for animals and plants, that is
history for human beings," the 19th-century historian
Johann Droysen observed. 

In today's ceremony the Book of Exodus will mingle with the
Holocaust, and a child will be recognized as an adult,
which means not only following God's commandments, but also
taking responsibility for the future, guided by the light
thrown by the past.   

http://www.nytimes.com/2004/02/28/opinion/28BROO.html?ex=1078977215&ei=1&en=658af6b965a7ba42


---------------------------------

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Copyright 2004 The New York Times Company

From jowen at greenhills.net  Sat Feb 28 13:19:07 2004
From: jowen at greenhills.net (Jack)
Date: Thu Mar 24 11:50:22 2005
Subject: [owen] New York Times letter
Message-ID: <200402281807.i1SI7J0D032119@ghlin4.greenhills.net>

     Lawrence I also was sent that letter. It is very informative and 
interesting reading.  Love you all Jack


From jowen at greenhills.net  Sun Feb 29 08:23:21 2004
From: jowen at greenhills.net (Jack)
Date: Thu Mar 24 11:50:22 2005
Subject: [owen] just wondering
Message-ID: <200402291311.i1TDBS0D019934@ghlin4.greenhills.net>

     Mark, i  know there are more orphans in the usa today than 
there are "straight " couples wanting to interupt their lives by 
adopting them. There are now 129,000 orphans, not counting ones 
in all the boys towns and girls towns. in the usa.
   Love you all Jack


From jowen at greenhills.net  Sun Feb 29 09:15:35 2004
From: jowen at greenhills.net (Jack)
Date: Thu Mar 24 11:50:22 2005
Subject: [owen] wildlife
Message-ID: <200402291403.i1TE3g0D020415@ghlin4.greenhills.net>

       Good morning all; Jack and Helen are sitting at our table 
observing a Bald Eagle groom itself in a large tree below our pond 
here in the yard. It is wonderful to see a species that was on the 
brink of extinction, to make a comeback after the ban of ddt.
  Love you all
   Jack


From klowen at hsnp.com  Sun Feb 29 13:32:04 2004
From: klowen at hsnp.com (lawrence)
Date: Thu Mar 24 11:50:22 2005
Subject: [owen] pink triangle
Message-ID: <000a01c3fef2$54a5d240$9989fea9@oemcomputer>

The Nazis required Jews to wear a yellow star of David on
their clothing.  They rounded up homnosexuals, put them in
concentration camps, and required them top wear a pink triangle
on their prison uniforms.

In today's Sunday paper from Little Rock there's a full page ad
praising Bush and his move to discriminate against homosexuals 
via a constitutional amendment.  The ad is signed by a number 
of prominent religious authoritarians.  I think the whole 
bunch of them should a big swastika on their suits proclaiming
their affinity with Nazis.  

Happy Sunday.
Lawrence
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From jd.cassels at verizon.net  Sun Feb 29 12:10:59 2004
From: jd.cassels at verizon.net (Jeff Cassels)
Date: Thu Mar 24 11:50:22 2005
Subject: [owen] pink triangle
In-Reply-To: <000a01c3fef2$54a5d240$9989fea9@oemcomputer>
Message-ID: <000501c3fee7$006c3da0$e26a0c04@Cassels>

Yea, let's paste the triangle on their clothing, put them in
concentration camps, do inhumane tests, kill them with a variety of
methods and bury them in mass graves.
 
Lawrence, your statement comparing the two is offensive to Jews and
ridiculous.  Good luck with all that!
 
Jeff

-----Original Message-----
From: owen-bounces@owenconnections.com
[mailto:owen-bounces@owenconnections.com] On Behalf Of lawrence
Sent: Sunday, February 29, 2004 12:32 PM
To: owen@owenconnections.com
Subject: [owen] pink triangle


The Nazis required Jews to wear a yellow star of David on
their clothing.  They rounded up homnosexuals, put them in
concentration camps, and required them top wear a pink triangle
on their prison uniforms.
 
In today's Sunday paper from Little Rock there's a full page ad
praising Bush and his move to discriminate against homosexuals 
via a constitutional amendment.  The ad is signed by a number 
of prominent religious authoritarians.  I think the whole 
bunch of them should a big swastika on their suits proclaiming
their affinity with Nazis.  
 
Happy Sunday.
Lawrence

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From jowen at greenhills.net  Sun Feb 29 15:14:19 2004
From: jowen at greenhills.net (Jack)
Date: Thu Mar 24 11:50:22 2005
Subject: [owen] swastika
Message-ID: <200402292002.i1TK2O0D024676@ghlin4.greenhills.net>

      I also think the ones running such an ad should have to wear a 
swasteka on them at all times in plain view. I fail to see how it  
could offend jews when they were forced to wear the star of david, 
and the homosexuals were forced to wear a pink triangle, and they 
were all in the same concentration camps.
       Love you all Jack